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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Mules
- Thread starter Ben Dover
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 831
4V sounds interesting!
I didn't consider the logistics of making that much Damascus, but I thought that it sounded like a nice insert to the series, since a bunch are making such beautiful scales...
Thanks!
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,691
I agree with you that it would be a nice addition to the series, but I too didn't consider the amount of time required, especially for a part time maker. Ed and I had discussed making Ed's very beautiful "feather" pattern and when we did the numbers, it would be 6 months of work for Ed, which becomes boring quickly. Knife makers are all renegades, (think of "herding cats"). They are knifemakers because the "available" is not good enough for them, so they're going to fix that.
sal
- Joined
- May 2, 2013
- Messages
- 55
Hi Joe,
Would you mind elaborating a little about "non corrosive" with regards to 4V? I gather that this does not mean stainless. Maybe it would help if you would list 4V, M4, D2, K390, Cruwear, and Super Blue in order of corrosiveness. I'm curious about degree of corrosiveness as it relates to desirable patina formation, unwanted rusting and pitting and so on.
Thanks,
Doug
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2006
- Messages
- 5,611
Hi Doug,
4V is a non stainless steel. It's tough making an accurate chart or listing of these steels for any one attribute. The fact is hardening temps, grinding methods, finishes and other factors can make knives of the same steel have different levels of corrosion resistance. Throw in all the steels and all the different possibilities and it makes accurate graphing difficult at best. rough guessing without testing is about all you can do. There are already charts put out by companies like Niagara that do this. Latrobe also has graphs available online. Having looked at most of them I have to say sometimes they will even contradict themselves so you can take it with a grain of salt. I do.
CPM Cruwear data sheet from Niagara: http://www.nsm-ny.com/files/CPM%20CRUWEAR.pdf
4V data sheet: http://www.nsm-ny.com/files/CPM-4V.pdf
Niagara knife steel comparison ( does not include CPM Cruwear) : http://www.nsm-ny.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=27
Carpenter/Latrobe graph for cold work steels. The Lescowear/PGK steels are very close in composition: http://www.latrobesteel.com/technical_alloycomparison.cfm?View=Results&CatID=1
Note: The graphs are fun but won't necessarily accurately show the results you may see in the steel prepared the way you have it in the knife you have in your hand. Some of the most impressive knives I've ever had used steels that didn't look very impressive in graphs like the ones shown.
It all biols down to the way your knife cuts, and sharpens. I take care of all tools in my possession and use them as they should be used so I don't really notice differences in corrosion resistance others might. All get cared for and therefore corrosion resistance isn't something I value or need. I even go swimming in the ocean with tool steel knives without thinking twice. I do like sharp, biting edges so I do notice differences in steel hardness, grain structure etc. much more than any other attribute. If it's for chopping I use the correct tool with the proper edge. If I pry, I don't use a knife. It's as simple as that.
Wear resistance as an attribute is something I pay attention too but it's not the end all either for me. I don't need K390 wear resistance, but it sure is fun.
I don't patina my knives. Even the high carbon ones that people seem to like putting patinas on. To me patinas don't look very good. I don't get them, you might say. The steels I prefer don't get real even , nice looking ones anyway. CPM M4 is an example of that. What patina is there tends to be splotchy and comes off during the next use. The steels that look half way decent patina'ed look better satin'ed or mirrored IMO.
4V, as I've stated I have no experience with. I'm looking forward to it though.
Joe
4V is a non stainless steel. It's tough making an accurate chart or listing of these steels for any one attribute. The fact is hardening temps, grinding methods, finishes and other factors can make knives of the same steel have different levels of corrosion resistance. Throw in all the steels and all the different possibilities and it makes accurate graphing difficult at best. rough guessing without testing is about all you can do. There are already charts put out by companies like Niagara that do this. Latrobe also has graphs available online. Having looked at most of them I have to say sometimes they will even contradict themselves so you can take it with a grain of salt. I do.
CPM Cruwear data sheet from Niagara: http://www.nsm-ny.com/files/CPM%20CRUWEAR.pdf
4V data sheet: http://www.nsm-ny.com/files/CPM-4V.pdf
Niagara knife steel comparison ( does not include CPM Cruwear) : http://www.nsm-ny.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=27
Carpenter/Latrobe graph for cold work steels. The Lescowear/PGK steels are very close in composition: http://www.latrobesteel.com/technical_alloycomparison.cfm?View=Results&CatID=1
Note: The graphs are fun but won't necessarily accurately show the results you may see in the steel prepared the way you have it in the knife you have in your hand. Some of the most impressive knives I've ever had used steels that didn't look very impressive in graphs like the ones shown.
It all biols down to the way your knife cuts, and sharpens. I take care of all tools in my possession and use them as they should be used so I don't really notice differences in corrosion resistance others might. All get cared for and therefore corrosion resistance isn't something I value or need. I even go swimming in the ocean with tool steel knives without thinking twice. I do like sharp, biting edges so I do notice differences in steel hardness, grain structure etc. much more than any other attribute. If it's for chopping I use the correct tool with the proper edge. If I pry, I don't use a knife. It's as simple as that.
Wear resistance as an attribute is something I pay attention too but it's not the end all either for me. I don't need K390 wear resistance, but it sure is fun.
I don't patina my knives. Even the high carbon ones that people seem to like putting patinas on. To me patinas don't look very good. I don't get them, you might say. The steels I prefer don't get real even , nice looking ones anyway. CPM M4 is an example of that. What patina is there tends to be splotchy and comes off during the next use. The steels that look half way decent patina'ed look better satin'ed or mirrored IMO.
4V, as I've stated I have no experience with. I'm looking forward to it though.
Joe
- Joined
- May 2, 2013
- Messages
- 55
Thanks very much, Joe, for going to the trouble to give me the benefit of your experience and considered thoughts about corrosion and patina and the folly of trying to compare all the different characteristics of each steel. And thanks for all the references as well.Hi Doug,
4V is a non stainless steel. It's tough making an accurate chart or listing of these steels for any one attribute. The fact is hardening temps, grinding methods, finishes and other factors can make knives of the same steel have different levels of corrosion resistance. Throw in all the steels and all the different possibilities and it makes accurate graphing difficult at best. rough guessing without testing is about all you can do. There are already charts put out by companies like Niagara that do this. Latrobe also has graphs available online. Having looked at most of them I have to say sometimes they will even contradict themselves so you can take it with a grain of salt. I do.
CPM Cruwear data sheet from Niagara: http://www.nsm-ny.com/files/CPM%20CRUWEAR.pdf
4V data sheet: http://www.nsm-ny.com/files/CPM-4V.pdf
Niagara knife steel comparison ( does not include CPM Cruwear) : http://www.nsm-ny.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&page_id=27
Carpenter/Latrobe graph for cold work steels. The Lescowear/PGK steels are very close in composition: http://www.latrobesteel.com/technical_alloycomparison.cfm?View=Results&CatID=1
Note: The graphs are fun but won't necessarily accurately show the results you may see in the steel prepared the way you have it in the knife you have in your hand. Some of the most impressive knives I've ever had used steels that didn't look very impressive in graphs like the ones shown.
It all biols down to the way your knife cuts, and sharpens. I take care of all tools in my possession and use them as they should be used so I don't really notice differences in corrosion resistance others might. All get cared for and therefore corrosion resistance isn't something I value or need. I even go swimming in the ocean with tool steel knives without thinking twice. I do like sharp, biting edges so I do notice differences in steel hardness, grain structure etc. much more than any other attribute. If it's for chopping I use the correct tool with the proper edge. If I pry, I don't use a knife. It's as simple as that.
Wear resistance as an attribute is something I pay attention too but it's not the end all either for me. I don't need K390 wear resistance, but it sure is fun.
I don't patina my knives. Even the high carbon ones that people seem to like putting patinas on. To me patinas don't look very good. I don't get them, you might say. The steels I prefer don't get real even , nice looking ones anyway. CPM M4 is an example of that. What patina is there tends to be splotchy and comes off during the next use. The steels that look half way decent patina'ed look better satin'ed or mirrored IMO.
4V, as I've stated I have no experience with. I'm looking forward to it though.
Joe
I'd already run into the fact that heat treatment changes corrosion resistance, but hadn't really incorporated it into my thinking
I can already feel my attitudes and values shifting a bit after just a couple of readings of your reply and I'm not ashamed to admit that I've printed out and kept a lot of your posts on subjects like this, and this one will join them. I'm beginning to see that metallurgy, especially involving blades, is as much an art as a cut and dried science.I'm looking forward to the 4V mule, too. It'll be fun to compare it to the K390.
Doug
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2006
- Messages
- 5,611
Thanks Doug. I come here to learn too. I figure I can socialize anywhere but there aren't as many places to learn what we can learn here, at Spyderco company website, and a couple other places. There have been a few guys that have been great answering questions for us without any ego, or smart a$$ remarks. Sal has been one of those I've learned a lot from over the years. I keep a folder of things he says that are ones I want to remember as he said them with no changes or interpretations from time or retelling s.
Many of the well known knife makers are great about sharing information. Phil Wilson is another one and I try to keep his posts regarding the very high performing powder steels like 10V/A11/K390, S110V, etc.
Metallurgists like Mete give us a few gems of info too.
There are a few legends in the industry that have been around like Phil Gibbs, Dan Maragni and some others also get recorded and filed.
I am a child learning at the feet of such people who are decent enough to share their experience with us.
We are at a time of great innovation and change like I've not seen in my over 40 years of knife use and collecting. Sal G. has done amazing things that have broke new grounds since he first went into the knife business. He has been responsible more than any one else in pushing the envelope performance wise in production knife wise. It's one thing for a knifemaker who makes knives part time to push the envelope performance wise but a whole different thing to do it on a large scale where the gains and losses are much greater.
Higher performance and new steels cause other makers to innovate in their company which inevitably benefits the consumers. Some guys make knives with genuine passion and it's very easy to tell which ones have it and which ones don't.
Look no further than the mule team program itself for evidence of this. It sells product at a much lower markup than regular production knives and uses production time that could be more profitably used on regular production knives with more demand and higher markup. The mules as designed were not meant to be kit knives as much as a platform used to test and compare steels using the same thickness, same bevels etc. The fact that it gives us some of the highest performing production knives ever made is almost besides the point.
We are some very fortunate knife knuts living in the right time and place to take advantage of this.
It's great!
Joe
Many of the well known knife makers are great about sharing information. Phil Wilson is another one and I try to keep his posts regarding the very high performing powder steels like 10V/A11/K390, S110V, etc.
Metallurgists like Mete give us a few gems of info too.
There are a few legends in the industry that have been around like Phil Gibbs, Dan Maragni and some others also get recorded and filed.
I am a child learning at the feet of such people who are decent enough to share their experience with us.
We are at a time of great innovation and change like I've not seen in my over 40 years of knife use and collecting. Sal G. has done amazing things that have broke new grounds since he first went into the knife business. He has been responsible more than any one else in pushing the envelope performance wise in production knife wise. It's one thing for a knifemaker who makes knives part time to push the envelope performance wise but a whole different thing to do it on a large scale where the gains and losses are much greater.
Higher performance and new steels cause other makers to innovate in their company which inevitably benefits the consumers. Some guys make knives with genuine passion and it's very easy to tell which ones have it and which ones don't.
Look no further than the mule team program itself for evidence of this. It sells product at a much lower markup than regular production knives and uses production time that could be more profitably used on regular production knives with more demand and higher markup. The mules as designed were not meant to be kit knives as much as a platform used to test and compare steels using the same thickness, same bevels etc. The fact that it gives us some of the highest performing production knives ever made is almost besides the point.
We are some very fortunate knife knuts living in the right time and place to take advantage of this.
It's great!
Joe
- Joined
- May 20, 2013
- Messages
- 71
DougC-3 - I agree with you about how educational and interesting some member's post can be. I do searches for posts by some of these guys hoping to stumble upon a long tread involving the big boys of steel. A few yrs ago, I only knew two knife steels - "stainless" and "nonstainless."
Wish I learned about the Mules earlier. I only have one, but it is the most recent one : )
Wish I learned about the Mules earlier. I only have one, but it is the most recent one : )
- Joined
- May 2, 2013
- Messages
- 55
Joe and WorkingEdge, I wish I'd tuned in decades ago at Spyderco's beginnings and followed the whole story, as well as laying by a pile of the old original knives but now is the most opportune time yet, as Joe says, with the Mule Team project in full swing and a great array of metals available to chose from and learn about. And with many experienced people willing to share their hard earned knowledge and experience. We're lucky to have these forums now too, which of course weren't possible in the early decades. These are stimulating times.
I've just got one mule at this point too, the K-390, but I'm counting on snagging the CPM 4V.
but now is the most opportune time yet, as Joe says, with the Mule Team project in full swing and a great array of metals available to chose from and learn about. And with many experienced people willing to share their hard earned knowledge and experience. We're lucky to have these forums now too, which of course weren't possible in the early decades. These are stimulating times.I've just got one mule at this point too, the K-390, but I'm counting on snagging the CPM 4V.
This is often not talked about, but very true. Get a $70 (ish) mule in K390, and you have a knife that will out cut and show better edge retention than 99% of all other production knives out there. Unreal.
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 831
ahhh, well... wishful thinking...
maybe I'll see if I can butter him up with some tuna, or catnip, and see if it wouldn't be too insulting if I were to ask him to grind me a one-off Schempp Mule...
anyway, back to reality, maybe having a reference Mule (in VG-10, or S30V) as a standard catalog item might help inspire some of our gifted scale makers to try some new things, that they might otherwise not, on a limited availability Mule... I don't recall where the discussion that Mr. Huegel (sp?) started a while back on this subject ended up...?
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,691
Hey Joe,
Interesting that you should mention Phil G and Dan M. AG Russell got together with Phil and Dan, designed and produced a knife that AG sells. I managed to talk them into selling one to me with all 3 sigs on the blade. It's going up as a display in the store. Very nice.
We do have some real knowledge and wisdom passing through our site. They drop in, offer volumes of real info, for free and disappear. Who was that masked man?
sal
Interesting that you should mention Phil G and Dan M. AG Russell got together with Phil and Dan, designed and produced a knife that AG sells. I managed to talk them into selling one to me with all 3 sigs on the blade. It's going up as a display in the store. Very nice.
We do have some real knowledge and wisdom passing through our site. They drop in, offer volumes of real info, for free and disappear. Who was that masked man?
sal
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2006
- Messages
- 5,611
Actually Sal I think I know which knife you are referring to. It's made out of DM-1 steel? I'd imagine there 's some interesting stories behind it's rebirth and development. Dan's, Phil's and A.G.'s involvement suggest it's probably done correctly and the most that can be is pulled out of that steel. It looks like a pretty tough design but I read the design has been changed slightly from the one pictured in the catalog and website. Different lanyard hole location maybe? I haven't seen the newer design.
I wouldn't mind picking one up myself someday. That's a lot of concentrated, undiluted experience between the three of them. That knife should have a place of honor and significance.
Thanks Sal,
Joe
I wouldn't mind picking one up myself someday. That's a lot of concentrated, undiluted experience between the three of them. That knife should have a place of honor and significance.
Thanks Sal,
Joe