Musings on The Traditional, Slip-Joint knife

Blake the Blade said:
Some might say it is ridiculous to imagine that there might be anything genetic in our appreciation and desire for a good knife. But when you consider that once upon a time a fire and a decent cutting edge were our most vital and valued tools, the control of which enabled us, ultimately, to survive as independent human beings, it becomes quite understandable to think that, somehow, some of that appreciation still resides instinctively within us. As when one feels the pull of that first fish of the season and something indescribable and almost primeval is felt pulling on the line, something from our distant past which I have come to believe pertains to the ancient hunter/survivor in us, so it is when we take up our traditional slip-joints.
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Interesting. I had always talked about the "gestalt" of traditional knives. Not using it 100% correctly, but close. I've used it as the feeling people might get from seeing the knife. A traditional might make an observer immediately and without thought get images and impressions of the kindly grandfather cutting an apple, working in his woodshop... you get it. A modern might give a gestalt more violent, at least a gestalt more edgy and modern, so it's in the name.

Your speaking of a genetic memory is also something I've pondered... and not just with edged tools. That would be more along the lines of an archetype.

Originally defined as universal, archaic symbols and images that derive from the collective unconscious, the term has grown and a common usage now is literary archetypes like the magician, the hero, yada.

When archetypes were first proposed they were defined as one step above instinct like the fear of snakes, etc. However, even the person who coined the term came over time to consider it's usage to include more fully formed ideas like the flood, the earth mother and the like. Regardless, they are considered hard wired into the brain, genetic if you will. A step above (below) a gestalt which might be a very basic learned image.

So... edged tools as a whole being an archetype? Absolutely. Hardly a stretch. Now... what about traditionals as being part of the "grandfather" literary archetype?

Ah, to be Jung again.
 
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davek14 said:
Interesting. I had always talked about the "gestalt" of traditional knives. Not using it 100% correctly, but close. I've used it as the feeling people might get from seeing the knife. A traditional might make an observer immediately and without thought get images and impressions of the kindly grandfather cutting an apple, working in his woodshop... you get it. A modern might give a gestalt more violent, at least a gestalt more edgy and modern, so it's in the name.

Your speaking of a genetic memory is also something I've pondered... and not just with edged tools. That would be more along the lines of an archetype.

Originally defined as universal, archaic symbols and images that derive from the collective unconscious, the term has grown and a common usage now is literary archetypes like the magician, the hero, yada.

When archetypes were first proposed they were defined as one step above instinct like the fear of snakes, etc. However, even the person who coined the term came over time to consider it's usage to include more fully formed ideas like the flood, the earth mother and the like. Regardless, they are considered hard wired into the brain, genetic if you will. A step above (below) a gestalt which might be a very basic learned image.

So... edged tools as a whole being an archetype? Absolutely. Hardly a stretch. Now... what about traditionals as being part of the "grandfather" literary archetype?

Ah, to be Jung again.
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Fa
davek14 said:
Interesting. I had always talked about the "gestalt" of traditional knives. Not using it 100% correctly, but close. I've used it as the feeling people might get from seeing the knife. A traditional might make an observer immediately and without thought get images and impressions of the kindly grandfather cutting an apple, working in his woodshop... you get it. A modern might give a gestalt more violent, at least a gestalt more edgy and modern, so it's in the name.

Your speaking of a genetic memory is also something I've pondered... and not just with edged tools. That would be more along the lines of an archetype.

Originally defined as universal, archaic symbols and images that derive from the collective unconscious, the term has grown and a common usage now is literary archetypes like the magician, the hero, yada.

When archetypes were first proposed they were defined as one step above instinct like the fear of snakes, etc. However, even the person who coined the term came over time to consider it's usage to include more fully formed ideas like the flood, the earth mother and the like. Regardless, they are considered hard wired into the brain, genetic if you will. A step above (below) a gestalt which might be a very basic learned image.

So... edged tools as a whole being an archetype? Absolutely. Hardly a stretch. Now... what about traditionals as being part of the "grandfather" literary archetype?

Ah, to be Jung again.
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Fascinating dave. We're really getting to the root of the appeal of traditional knives. More than mere string cutters I reckon. Thanks for your insight.
 
fishinfs said:
Great post! Carrying a pocketknife is a common experience that we share with countless others past and present. In some ways it's a ritual like drinking coffee or tea - it connects us.

This reminded me of a quote from the late English (French) historian Hillaire Belloc -

"And the most important cause of this feeling of satisfaction is that you are doing what the human race has done for thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years. This is a matter of such moment that I am astonished people hear of it so little. Whatever is buried right into our blood from immemorial habit that we must be certain to do if we are to be fairly happy (of course no grown man or woman can really be very happy for long–but I mean reasonably happy), and, what is more important, decent and secure of our souls. Thus one should from time to time hunt animals, or at the very least shoot at a mark; one should always drink some kind of fermented liquor with one’s food–and especially deeply upon great feast-days; one should go on the water from time to time; and one should dance on occasions; and one should sing in chorus. For all these things man has done since God put him into a garden and his eyes first became troubled with a soul. Similarly some teacher or ranter or other, whose name I forget, said lately one very wise thing at least, which was that every man should do a little work with his hands."
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It's true. We need these connections. Thanks for that.
 
Here's a quote attributed to the Austrian composer Gustav Mahler who in turn was likely paraphrasing Moore from Latin, English poets of the c17th and even Benjamin Franklin had a version, can't use the original German but it can be found

"Tradition is not the worship of ashes but the preservation of fire "

Seems apt as Tradition should not be not whimsy or fogeyish nostalgia but the maintenance of quality.

Sir Issac Newton explained his own prowess thus " If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants " For me this expresses what contemporary Artisan cutlers are trying to achieve by understanding the skills and cues of masters before them but making their own interpretation. Similarly, GEC or some of the contemporary Italian makers are paying a homage to former styles with new methods or points of view but always inspired by what has gone on before.

Thus, when you carry a new CASE, or other for example, you are carrying a pattern or type that has been around longer than you have. Moreover, if you have the treasures of your ancestors, you may not be able to carry them- too fragile, worn or the terror of losing the irreplaceable - but you have an automatic connexion to them and their times as an impressive homage. It inspires you and makes you reflect.

Thanks, Will
 
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This is not an ancestral knife. But this old Rem Sleeveboard is close on 100 years old and I got it for not much from the Bay ten years or so ago. It's a very nice little knife with still good snap, pretty bone & pinned Fed. I carry it with care on occasion as it gives me a thrill, reverie even. Who was its first owner? A boy, girl, woman, gent in the 1920s of prohibition America?? Chosen or given? Whatever, was well used but cared for, then handed on, then likely spent years gathering dust (but not really rust!) in a drawer before it gets on the Bay and is sent to Europe. The story could be enormous or small.

Priceless, even though it didn't cost much, less than 20 USD I seem to recall.

HmxPqJl.jpg
 
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Hickory n steel said:
Don't forget that many pattern offer multiple blades, so traditionals can be more useful.

The tradition and heritage is a nice thought, but for me it boils down to just liking the knives more and finding a smaller secondary blade on my knife useful.
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Absolutely Hickory. Certainly not a concept lost on our forbears either. Just makes a good tool better. I believe there are even Roman examples of multitools. I myself usually carry a SAK alongside a one or two blade traditional.

Untitled by Mark Saunders, on Flickr
 
I can’t speak to the concept of the knife as Jungian archetype - especially since my knowledge of the subject is limited to what I just read on Wikipedia 5 minutes ago - but without waxing philosophical about it, here are my observations:
  1. Traditional pocket knives are still useful, convenient, and functional tools.
  2. Traditional pocket knives are aesthetically pleasing for a variety of reasons, and nostalgia may play a part in that.
Whether your thoughts concerning why you like knives are limited to “knives are cool, I like knives”, or if you compose and post lengthy essays postulating a link between your hobby and mankind’s primal yearnings, it’s nice that we have a (reasonably) judgement-free place to express ourselves about it.:)
 
Will Power said:
This is not an ancestral knife. But this old Rem Sleeveboard is close on 100 years old and I got it for not much from the Bay ten years or so ago. It's a very nice little knife with still good snap, pretty bone & pinned Fed. I carry it with care on occasion as it gives me a thrill, reverie even. Who was its first owner? A boy, girl, woman, gent in the 1920s of prohibition America?? Chosen or given? Whatever, was well used but cared for, then handed on, then likely spent years gathering dust (but not really rust!) in a drawer before it gets on the Bay and is sent to Europe. The story could be enormous or small.

Priceless, even though it didn't cost much less than 20 USD I seem to recall.

HmxPqJl.jpg
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Beautiful little knife Will. A pleasure to carry I would imagine. Nothing sparks the imagination like an old penknife does it. Here's one I picked up recently in an antique shop. Even the crack tells a story...

124223338_653123782261529_6583728464696934689_n by Mark Saunders, on Flickr
 
Just Tom. said:
I can’t speak to the concept of the knife as Jungian archetype - especially since my knowledge of the subject is limited to what I just read on Wikipedia 5 minutes ago - but without waxing philosophical about it, here are my observations:
  1. Traditional pocket knives are still useful, convenient, and functional tools.
  2. Traditional pocket knives are aesthetically pleasing for a variety of reasons, and nostalgia may play a part in that.
Whether your thoughts concerning why you like knives are limited to “knives are cool, I like knives”, or if you compose and post lengthy essays postulating a link between your hobby and mankind’s primal yearnings, it’s nice that we have a (reasonably) judgement-free place to express ourselves about it.:)
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Absolutely Tom. Where else could you express yourself on this stuff and have a group of people ready to discuss and share it with. A photo, a few words, a question or an essay...its all good. :):thumbsup:
 
Just Tom. said:
Tell me more about that couteau à palme...
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I know a guy where I work who restores tools. He told me he had this and said if he could fix the bent blade he'd sell it to me. He did a great job on it. I fixed the, then weak, locking mechanism by re-pinning the spring. I did post here on French Regional Knives and got some great general info on these types of knives. I believe they were issued to French soldiers in the first world war.

Untitled by Mark Saunders, on Flickr
 
Blake the Blade said:
I know a guy where I work who restores tools. He told me he had this and said if he could fix the bent blade he'd sell it to me. He did a great job on it. I fixed the, then weak, locking mechanism by re-pinning the spring. I did post here on French Regional Knives and got some great general info on these types of knives. I believe they were issued to French soldiers in the first world war.

Untitled by Mark Saunders, on Flickr
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Ok, I remember seeing that now. My particular weakness is Okapi knives, so I am always interested to see other examples of the same type. Nontron makes a reproduction of the WW1 model, but it is way too expensive for what it is, and stainless.
 
Just Tom. said:
Ok, I remember seeing that now. My particular weakness is Okapi knives, so I am always interested to see other examples of the same type. Nontron makes a reproduction of the WW1 model, but it is way too expensive for what it is, and stainless.
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Yeah I always wanted what I would describe as a ratchet knife. This one has a lovely cow horn handle.
 
Wow, getting deep int it here.

I think for me, its all totally about the memories of the past. A traditional knife brings up some of my earliest memories. Because dad was away in the war, I knew my grandfather before I knew my dad. looking at an old well used traditional pocket knife makes me think if those memories of granddads boat and going out on the water. Sounds of water against the word hull, the thumping of the little Diesel engine, granddad using his pocket knife to scrape the inside of his pipe bowl, the smell of the salt water.

Later when dad came home and took us to live in D.C., there was still memories of the pocketknife being used. To a little boy, a pocket knife seemed like a magic tool that made things possible. Cutting up a snack out in the woods, trimming fishing line, cutting a string, sharpening a pencil. Seeing hoe easy it was for moms or dad to open a package that came in the mail with that old style brown packing tape that was put on wet, and dried like a concrete band around the package. But it cut so easy with a small sharp knife that every man had in his pocket. Or watching the local beat cop, a big defy Irish guy named Kennedy, use a sharp little pen knife to neatly cut the end of a cigar off.

When I see an old penknife or jackknife, I think of the era just after WW2, when life seemed simpler, cars had tail fins, James Dean was the rebel, John Wayne was king at the movies, and there was right and wrong, and people knew the difference and had a code of behavior that reflected it.

Life back then seemed a little better than now. More genteel. The little things like manners mattered.
 
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