My advice on sniffing out scammers

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Magnaminous_G

Magnaminous_G

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This started as a response in another thread, but it morphed into something more, so I decided to make a new thread. You'll often hear me start my posts with, "I'm not an expert, but..." Well, this is different. I have interrogated thousands of people (for the federal government), and I do consider myself a bit of an expert at sniffing out scammers. Here are my thoughts if you get any benefit out of them. I'm long-winded, I know, but I think you should read this if you are doubting a transaction.

Thanks,

Mag


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I interrogate people for a living, and I don't trust anything.

Let me talk about that for a second because this gets to the heart of dealing with scammers. A large part of what I do is establishing someone's identity: i.e., are they who they say they are? I don't trust documents; I don't trust ID's; I don't trust anything on paper or even in databases. There *is* something I trust, but I'll get to that in a minute. First, more on this topic: you really can't trust anyone or anything no matter how "legitimate," when it boils down to it; people can create an identity from scratch, and it's not that hard...(portions excised by moderator)...

The moral of this long-winded story is: documents and "proof" are worthless.

So, how do you sniff out a scammer?

So now we get to the core issue of dealing with scammers: what do you do with someone who has no fingerprints, has had facial surgery to the eyes, nose, lips, jaw bone, and ears, and possesses multiple passports and driver's licenses from different states and countries? You ASK QUESTIONS. That's how you deal with scammers. Knowing what questions to ask and how to interrogate the subject is an acquired skill, but it's not rocket science or magic. Anyone with a little common sense and intelligence can do it. What you never want to do is let the subject try to convince you of his bona fides with worthless information or emotional manipulation. Here's some simple exercises:



Exercises!

1. You are a librarian and announce over the PA that a wallet is in the Lost & Found. The wallet has no ID inside. Two minutes later, a guy shows up and claims it is his. What do you do?
This one is easy. Of course, you ask him to describe the wallet and its contents. If he can't do that, it's probably not his. (note: he might start crying and tell you he needs the wallet now - emotional manipulation. He might tell you he is a youth pastor who never told a lie in his life - worthless information.)

2. You are an Italian restaurant owner in need of a pasta chef. You put an ad in the papers. The next day, someone walks into your restaurant claiming to be a great pasta chef. What do you do?
This one is a bit harder. But here's the crux of interrogation: always focus on the substance. What is it you need to know? In this case, the crux is whether the guy can make a good pasta or not. That's all you need to know. Everything else is worthless (Okay, he needs to be able to take orders, play nice with other staff, etc., but you get my point). It doesn't even matter if he has a resume and references. All the restaurants he listed could be fake. Maybe the phone numbers belong to friends of his. Maybe they are real restaurants, but he knows the owners and they are willing to lie for him and say he is a great chef. So what do you do? Documents are worthless, as I've said before. The resume is worthless information. Don't be fooled. So what do you do? You ASK QUESTIONS. One possibility: "Tell me how to make a spaghetti from scratch. Be very detailed." A scammer can't answer this question. Because if he can, then he really does know how to make a spaghetti. Then you just let him make one. If it's good, then you hire him. Case closed.

3. You are selling a $1,000 knife. You put an ad on BF. Someone tells you they want to buy the knife, but they have no profile, no ID, no feedback, no posts, nada. What do you do?
Again, remember that documents are worthless. His claims of E-bay success and feedback? Pfft. We all know that that is worthless. His emotional pleas that you should give a new member a chance? I wouldn't give a stranger a chance if $1,000 is at stake and he has no reputation. His "evidence" of his bona fides are worthless information. So what do you do? You ASK QUESTIONS. Remember, you always focus on the substance. What is it you need to know? In this case, the crux is whether the guy is going to pay you for the knife. Focus on that. One possibility: "So, how do you plan to pay for this knife?" Yup, ask straight up and direct. That is the crux, and so ask it. If he gives you any answer that leaves you doubting, I'd say back out. I wouldn't even bother with follow up questions like, "Are you willing to do a PMO and wait for cash clearance?" What does it matter? If you don't trust him, then wouldn't you worry that he might try to pull a scam out of it? But, let's say you really want to sell the knife {this issue is addressed in the next section below: The mind of a scammer: they attack your weaknesses (greed and ego)}. But let's just say you still want to sell the knife to this guy, despite the red flags. So you ask, "Are you willing to do a PMO and wait for cash clearance before I ship?" If the answer is anything but, "Sure, yes!" or he tries to use emotional manipulation ("I'm a new member, give me a chance!") or worthless information ("I'm the president of the Northern Oz Wizard's Knife Collecting Foundation, and I have 100% positive feedback on E-bay!"), well... you can probably guess what I'd do.


The moral of this story is: *The only thing I trust is a conversation with the person in front of me.* I can learn more in a 10 minute conversation, asking the right questions and observing carefully, than I can from checking documents all day long. That is an acquired skill that comes with experience. But I can't do that over the internet (and I wouldn't want to... can you imagine someone saying, "Hey, before I agree to this deal, let's meet in person?") I don't even like interviewing over the phone. It has to be face-to-face for me. As for feedback, join dates and posts, there is an important distinction to make. On the one hand, it's not reliable, and you know how I feel about documents. But that said, a member's record here is not a "document," strictly speaking. It's actually a record of conversations and interactions. And that *IS* reliable, to a certain degree. You can glean a lot about somebody by reading what they've written. If I have no reason to suspect someone who's been on here a while and has been an active contributor and community member and seems to be a decent guy and has great feedback, then I will just ask a few questions until I am satisfied that I am dealing with someone trustworthy. And that's it. But even good, longstanding members can change... and scam you. That is addressed in the below section: "Even good people go bad. What to do when people change..."


The mind of a scammer: they attack your weaknesses (greed and ego)

This is from another thread...

To me it really seems that there is no way to fully protect yourself from getting scammed at this point. These are my thoughts... Am I just off my rocker or does this make sense to anyone?
Click to expand...

You're not off your rocker, at all. I'm with you 100% there. You can't fully protect yourself from getting scammed. But you can do the best you can do. Careful observation and picking up on hints and red flags is the key... and trusting your gut. The OP trusted his gut and came here. I believe he avoided being scammed. He picked up on the red flags, took it here, and went with his gut. He asked the right questions. He proposed the simple solution, and the scammer backed down. He had no answer. See my post immediately preceding this one above. But he almost didn't do it. I think he was very close to pulling the trigger because he wanted it to be real. He wanted to sell his $1,000 knife badly, and the scammer wanted to feed on that weakness (greed). Here's another example: if you follow Mike Snody, you'll see he got scammed big recently. I think all the signs were there, but I believe that Mike wanted it to be real and didn't trust his gut and didn't ask the right questions of the scammer. The scammer was a guy who claimed to worship him, groomed him for a while pretending to be a loyal admirer, and then suddenly wanted to buy 13 expensive knives in one go. That's a lot of money, and he preyed on Mike. Scammers feed on the mark's greed and ego. But if you read all the crap that guy was posting, the red flags were totally there from the beginning. All Mike had to do was ask a few good direct questions, and the scammer wouldn't have been able to answer. The scam would have been revealed, I believe.



Even good people go bad. What to do when people change...

Yes, people with a good reputation built up over time and many transactions, who are real people with real feelings and views, who seem honest and credible, have suddenly gone rogue, but it's rare. And you can even figure that out, if you ASK QUESTIONS. It usually boils down to money when people suddenly change. People go broke or find themselves in a bind or crisis of some kind, and suddenly they start behaving differently. So you watch for the changing behavior. A good example here is the recent issue with Oleg Krimlin. I believe something happened to him, probably involving money. If I had been one of these guys wanting to buy from him, the minute I noticed his disappearance and sudden insisting on payment up front for orders, that would have set off all sorts of red flags with me. I hope Oleg is okay and got over whatever happened. His knives are beautiful. What he really needs to do is come 100% clean and address the community and talk about what happened and what he's doing to get better. But frankly, the red flags were there. The behavior changed. So what do you do?

ASK QUESTIONS. Again, don't be afraid to challenge. Don't be afraid to ask direct questions. Possibilities: "Hey Oleg, I noticed you haven't been on as much lately and your communication has dropped off. Is something wrong?" "The GB&U thread suggests that members not pay up front for custom orders, yet you want me to pay up front. Is there a reason why?" "I trust that you will make the knife in a timely manner, Oleg, so how about I pay you when you show me a pic of the finished knife?" Everything will be revealed in the responses (or lack thereof). Are the answers evasive? Defensive? Bad sign. Is he forthcoming? Does he come clean and explain things thoroughly? Does his story make sense? Is he willing to make amends and tailor the deal to your satisfaction? Good sign.


(Portions of the original post have been edited to avoid providing information to those with less than honest intentions and because they are not ultimately germane to the warning intended by the OP.)
 
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Interesting read, thanks for the pointers. Try to follow my intuition on transactions and keep things as simple as possible. If something deviates too far from the norm- forget about it, shouldn't be that complicated.
 
dark impaler said:
Interesting read, thanks for the pointers. Try to follow my intuition on transactions and keep things as simple as possible. If something deviates too far from the norm- forget about it, shouldn't be that complicated.
Click to expand...

You bring up an excellent point! I need to address that. See new section below! "When things deviate from the norm"
 
"When things deviate from the norm"

That's something I forgot to mention: when something deviates from the norm. Here's what I think: things deviate from the norm all the time. Your "intuition" only tells you that something is amiss, but it doesn't tell you *what* is amiss. It's good to find that out. If you ever play games of chance (dice, cards, etc.), the "wrong" card turns up all the time. Things don't always go as you expect or predict, especially when you are dealing with people. That is indeed a red flag, but the proper response is to first find out why. Again, your intuition can only tell you that something "feels wrong," but it doesn't tell you *what* is wrong. You have to find out what is wrong.


Example 1:

Someone is standing around awkwardly next to you in a parking lot, looking out of place and being shady. That's abnormal and it sets off red flags. What do you do? The average person's response is to immediately go into defense mode and confront the person, attack him, or run away and call the cops, causing a big scene that might not even be necessary. But there might be a good reason why he is acting that way. You don't let your guard down, of course. Be ready to fight, but find out why first. Because he might have a legitimate reason to be acting that way. In a non-confrontational, sincere way, I might ask, "Hey, are you okay, man? You need some help?" Maybe he's a wacko who wants to hurt you or steal your car. The response will tell. But heck... maybe he's getting the courage up to go into a restaurant next door and ask his fiance to marry him! You'll both have a laugh. You might even give him some advice. The response will tell everything.


Example 2:

Your gf is acting weird lately and clearly hiding something, not wanting to let you know who she's talking to on the phone. Red flag? Heck, yes. Is she cheating on you? You can't come to that conclusion until you've gotten to the bottom of it. That's what you have to find out. Maybe she's cheating on you... but she could be planning your surprise party, for all you know. Again, your intuition can only tell you that something "feels wrong," but it doesn't tell you *what* is wrong. The solution is to ASK QUESTIONS. Again, don't be afraid to confront, and don't be afraid to be direct. Possibility: "Hey baby, you've been acting a bit weird lately, and I've noticed you've been kind of hiding your phone calls. Is something up?" All will be revealed in the response. If she gives you a devilish smile and says, "Just wait and see," well, that's probably a good sign. If she becomes very defensive and doesn't want to talk about it... bad sign.


In short, I don't immediately write something off because it feels wrong or "off." Sometimes it's something innocent or silly. I'd find out why first. It could be something innocent or even funny, like the guy who wants to propose to his gf. Remember, someone could be acting shady or evasive because *they* are afraid of *you!* I've interrogated people acting shady as hell who were accused of horrible things, only to find out they were worried about something stupid like me finding out that they were having an affair with their secretary and worried I would tell their wife. When you feel that something is "off," my advice is to get to the bottom of it first before making conclusions.

Again: ASK QUESTIONS. Don't be afraid to confront, and don't be afraid to ask directly exactly what you want to know. You can even ask point-blank, "Hey, your responses are a bit shady to me. I'm not getting the normal feeling from this transaction. Is there something you want to tell me?" All will be revealed in the response. That's my opinion based on experience.
 
Thanks for the good read and wise advices.

And also thanks for watching out for your fellow knife lovers :D
 
So, how do you sniff out a scammer?

You ASK QUESTIONS. That's how you sniff out scammers from the real deal. Knowing what questions to ask is an acquired skill, but it's not rocket science or magic. Anyone with a little common sense and intelligence can do it. What you never want to do is let someone try to convince you of his bona fides with worthless information or emotional manipulation. Here's the crux of asking the right questions: always focus on the substance. What is it you need to know? In most cases, the crux is whether the guy is going to pay you for the knife. Focus on that. Don't be afraid to challenge. Don't be afraid to ask direct questions. One possibility: "So, how do you plan to pay for this knife?" Everything will be revealed in the responses (or lack thereof).

Yup, ask straight up and direct. That is the crux, and so ask it. If he gives you any answer that leaves you doubting, I'd say back out. But let's just say you still want to sell the knife to this guy, despite the red flags. So you ask, "Are you willing to do a PMO and wait for cash clearance before I ship?" If the answer is anything but, "Sure, yes!" or he tries to use emotional manipulation ("I'm a new member, give me a chance!") or worthless information ("I'm the president of the Northern Oz Wizard's Knife Collecting Foundation, and I have 100% positive feedback on E-bay!"), well... you can probably guess what I'd do.

Again, if you are feeling weird about a transaction, focus in like a laser on the thing that is bothering you (no feedback, new member, foreign country, etc.). And then ask direct questions about those things. Keep focused on what you want to know, don't be afraid to ask about anything bothering you, and watch out for answers that throw up red flags.


The mind of a scammer: they attack your weaknesses (greed and ego)

You can't fully protect yourself from getting scammed. But you can do the best you can do. Careful observation and picking up on hints and red flags is the key... and trusting your gut. Don't let yourself be manipulated. Scammers can tell if you are desperate to sell a knife. They can tell if you really just want to be liked and respected. They will feed you stories to soften you up, and then they will scam you. Don't be the mark. If you ask the right questions, the scam will be revealed because there will always be a point where the scammer cannot answer the questions anymore. If they could, then they would be the real deal.


Even good people go bad. What to do when people change...

Yes, people with a good reputation built up over time and many transactions, who are real people with real feelings and views, who seem honest and credible, have suddenly gone rogue, but it's rare. And you can even figure that out, if you ASK QUESTIONS. It usually boils down to money when people suddenly change. People go broke or find themselves in a bind or crisis of some kind, and suddenly they start behaving differently. So you watch for the changing behavior.

The behavior changed. So what do you do? That’s right: ASK QUESTIONS. Are the answers evasive? Defensive? Bad sign. Is he forthcoming? Does he come clean and explain things thoroughly? Does his story make sense? Is he willing to make amends and tailor the deal to your satisfaction? Good sign. Again, everything will be revealed in the responses (or lack thereof).


"When things deviate from the norm"

Something giving you bad vibes, but you can't put your finger on it and don't know what to do? Here's what I think: things deviate from the norm all the time. You know, the things that give you a “bad feeling.” Here’s the truth: your "intuition" only tells you that something is amiss, but it doesn't tell you *what* is amiss. It's good to find that out. If you ever play games of chance (dice, cards, etc.), the "wrong" card turns up all the time. Things don't always go as you expect or predict, especially when you are dealing with people. That is indeed a red flag, but the proper response is to first find out why. Again, your intuition can only tell you that something "feels wrong," but it doesn't tell you *what* is wrong. You have to find out what is wrong.

Everything will be revealed in the responses (or lack thereof). In short, I don't immediately write something off because it feels wrong or "off." Sometimes it's something innocent or silly. I'd find out why first. Someone could be acting shady or evasive because *they* are afraid of *you!* Someone could be acting weird because they are nervous about something unrelated to the transaction. When you feel that something is "off," my advice is to get to the bottom of it first before making conclusions.

How do you do that? ASK QUESTIONS. Don't be afraid to confront, and don't be afraid to ask directly exactly what you want to know. You can even ask point-blank, "Hey, your responses are a bit shady to me. I'm not getting the normal feeling from this transaction. Is there something you want to tell me?" Everything will be revealed in the responses (or lack thereof).
 
There have been a lot of threads on BF recently of members who have been scammed. In my opinion, the heart of the matter is that people aren’t asking enough questions when considering a transaction, or they’re asking the wrong questions. This is a common problem with beginner interviewers/interrogators. Interrogation (or asking the right questions and/or asking hard questions that make people uncomfortable) is not a natural skill. In fact, most people try very hard to avoid putting themselves in uncomfortable, potentially confrontational situations to begin with. It’s almost as if we’re programmed to avoid questioning peoples’ integrity and asking them direct questions… either that, or we just don’t know what questions to ask. This makes us frustrated when we think we’re being lied to or scammed because we don’t know what to do about it.

This post is an attempt to help other members know what to do when they think the other party to a deal might be trying to scam them. I’ve interrogated thousands of people, and I think my experience might be able to help people make better transactions and avoid getting scammed. I’d like to share my thoughts and maybe this will help people or not, but here it is.


A scammer…

1. Always has an excuse
2. Rarely has a clear and direct answer
3. Appeals to your emotions
4. Flatters you
5. Looks for your weaknesses (desperation, greed, etc.) to exploit


An innocent person who looks like a scammer…

1. Has a good excuse (if you give him a chance to explain)
2. Has a satisfactory and clear answer (if you give him a chance to explain)
3. Doesn’t try to manipulate you
4. Cooperates with your demands for information


Protecting yourself from a potential scammer means…

1. Don’t be greedy.
2. Don’t be desperate.
3. Don’t accept flattery.
4. Don’t accept excuses.
5. Don’t accept unclear answers.
6. But the number one thing you can do to protect yourself from a scammer is…

… YOU HAVE TO ASK QUESTIONS. Even if you ask the wrong questions, asking some kind of questions at least will give you some more information about the other party and his thought process. But I’ll try to give some tips to help ask the right questions. But you cannot go through with a deal unless you’ve thoroughly asked the other party about all the questions that are bothering you. I believe that this applies to any “transaction,” including the decision to get married, to invite someone to a party, etc. As a result, I believe these are general skills to master. This cannot be stressed enough. Most of us come from cultures where it is considered impolite or even downright rude to question people’s integrity when we have doubts. We want to give people the benefit of the doubt and believe that they are good. We also want to believe that this will work out. But, when money is at stake and you could get seriously hurt, it is important to overcome that natural aversion to confrontation and ask some direct questions. So what questions should you ask? Knowing what questions to ask is an acquired skill, but it's not rocket science or magic. Anyone with a little common sense can do it. Knowing what questions to ask means always focusing like a laser on two KEY things:

1. What it is that is bothering you (i.e. what is raising the red flags)
2. What information do you need in order to resolve (the red flags)


I’ve made up some simple, hypothetical scenarios that illustrate the point better:


1. You are a librarian. You find a lost wallet on a library table and promptly announce over the PA that there is a wallet in the Lost & Found. The wallet has no ID inside. Two minutes later, a man shows up and claims it is his. What questions do you ask?

This one is easy. Of course you ask him to describe the wallet and its contents. If he can't do that, it's probably not his. Important note: he might start crying and tell you he needs the wallet now. Or he might tell you he is a youth pastor who never told a lie in his life. Or he might tell you he is someone important or accuse you of stealing it for yourself (and threaten to call the cops). Scammers try to use diversions like this to confuse you: emotional manipulation, irrelevant facts, flattery, or threats. Stay focused on the important thing you need to know: is the wallet his or not? That’s all you need to know. If it is his, then he should be able to describe the wallet and its contents. If not, he is S.O.L.


2. You are an Italian restaurant owner. Your pasta chef quit last night, and you are in desperate need of a new pasta chef pronto. You put an ad in the papers for a pasta chef position with generous pay. The next day, someone walks into your restaurant claiming to be a great pasta chef, but you’re not sure if he really is. What questions do you ask?

This one is a bit harder. But you still need to keep in mind that you need to focus on asking the right questions. In this case, the question is whether the guy can make a good pasta or not. That's all you need to know. It doesn't even matter if he has a resume and references. You still have to ask questions. All the restaurants he listed could be fake. Maybe the phone numbers belong to friends of his. Along those lines, maybe they are real restaurants, but it could still be fake because he may know the owners, who are willing to lie for him and say he is a great chef. So what questions to ask? A great question to ask is this: "How would you make a spaghetti from scratch? Please be very detailed." A scammer can't answer this question. Because if he can, then he really is a pasta chef. Then you just let him make one. If it's good, then you hire him. Case closed. If he tries to describe how to make a spaghetti but it’s very vague and lacking details (basically, if he hasn’t convinced you 100%), then tell him “Sorry, but I don’t think you’d be a good fit here.”


Now let’s talk a bit about jumping to conclusions and being overly cautious. Just as there are many scammers out there, there are just as many innocent people who are accused of being scammers. They may be young guys who don’t communicate well. They may be foreign buyers who can’t express themselves well in English. This is probably the nuance that is most frustrating for you when you are trying to make a deal. You don’t want to get scammed, but you also don’t want to pass up a good transaction (and falsely accuse an innocent person). You shouldn’t trust people blindly, but you also shouldn’t adopt a “bunker” mentality where you trust nobody. There is a fine balance, and I’ll try to explain how to resolve this dilemma. The key is this: when you get the red flags, you have to resolve those red flags first. You have to give people a chance to explain themselves if something feels “off.” And you have to give people a chance to explain themselves if they “fit the profile,” because it’s wrong to stereotype people (i.e., if they are from “one of those countries,” if they are a new member with few posts, etc.).


Example: You are selling a $1,000 knife. You put an ad on BF. Someone tells you they want to buy the knife, but they have no profile, no ID, no feedback, no posts, nada. What questions do you ask?

Remember, it’s easy to get lost in the weeds here. Don’t get frustrated or confused. Focus on the two keys and be prepared to confront with questions to resolve your doubts. His claims of E-bay success and feedback? Not important. His emotional pleas that you should give a new member a chance? Not important. His pleas that he needs the knife soon? Not important. Stay focused. What is it that is bothering you? In this case, the issue is that you A) don’t trust him because he’s new, and B) don’t trust that he is going to pay you. Focus on that, and don’t be afraid to ask questions. What do you need to know to resolve? You need to know whether or not he going to pay you. So what questions should you ask? A great question to ask is this: "I noticed that you are new here with no feedback. There are a lot of scammers out there, and I need to know that you are not a scammer. I have doubts about this transaction. I need you to prove that you are not a scammer and can pay in a way that is safe for me. So how do you plan to pay for this?” Then let him respond. If his proposal doesn’t make you 100% confident, then back out of the deal and don’t listen to his arguments. But at least give him the chance to respond. Because even though he is (insert demographic group here), maybe if you let him respond, you can work out a deal with him that makes you 100% confident.

Hope this helps,

Mag
 
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