My Blade Show thread...

Phillip Patton

Phillip Patton

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
5,339
Howdy all!
Well, it looks like I'm going to be at the Blade show this year. I'm looking forward to it. :)
My purposes for this thread is to preview the knives I'll be taking, and more importantly to get advice from those more experienced with shows. I'm especially looking for input from collectors and buyers. I've only been to one knife show, so I have a lot to learn.
I'll put forward the questions I have for you in another post. For now, here are the drawings of my five JS knives (plus the performance test knife).
Last week I was sick, and unable to work on "real" knives, so I took the down time to draw up the 6 knives that I HAVE to take to Atlanta....

jsknives.JPG



Here are the specs for them, as they look in my head right now. :)

From top:


Performance test knife,

Steel: 5160
Handle: Green micarta


Hunter,

Steel: W2
Handle: Not sure yet; maybe cocobolo or ironwood?
Guard: 416 ss
Spacers: Black paper micarta and stainless
Blade length: 5"


Utility,

Steel: 1084
Handle: Natural micarta
Guard: 416 ss
Blade length: 7"


Fighter,

Steel: 1084
Handle: African Blackwood
Guard: 416 ss
Spacers: Black paper micarta and SS
Blade length: 9"


Camp knife,

Steel: W2
Handle: Not sure yet. Probably black micarta or osage orange.
Blade length: 11"


Bowie,

Steel: W2 with hamon
Handle: Desert ironwood
Guard and buttplate: Aluminum bronze
Spacers: Black paper micarta and aluminum bronze
Blade length: 10"


Again, any comments or (constructive) criticism is welcome. :cool:

Thanks,
Phillip
 
I see NO advantage to using 5-6 different steels.

Pick 2.......that would be my recommendation...an air/oil hardening steel and a water hardening steel.

Best Regards,

Steven Garsson
 
They look a little flat. ;)

They're all good, but I really like the looks of the camp knife, bowie, and fighter.

If you're using 1086M, have you given any consideration to making bainite or bainite-spine/martensite edge knives? I know lower bainite borders on being the most overated steel crystal shape this side of the West, but whenever a steel amenable to its formation (1086M, 5160, 52100, L6, O1) is being used, it pops into my head if the knife is of a camper or bowie shape.
 
Kohai999 said:
I see NO advantage to using 5-6 different steels.

Pick 2.......that would be my recommendation...an air/oil hardening steel and a water hardening steel.

Best Regards,

Steven Garsson
Click to expand...


Heh heh. I KNEW someone would bring that up. :o Here's why I'm doing it:

I'm using 5160 for the performance test knife because none of the steels I normally use will "pass" the bend portion of the test as easily as 5160...

I'm using the 1086M for the bowie because I want the bowie to have a hamon, and Don Hanson gave me a chunk that I've been saving for a special occasion.

I'm using 1095 for the camp knife because, well, just because. :D
I'm using O1 for the utility because I like O1, and it's what I use the most of.
I guess I could cut it down to three different steels. Is there a good reason to NOT use a different steel for each knife?

Thanks,
Phillip
 
thombrogan said:
They look a little flat. ;)

They're all good, but I really like the looks of the camp knife, bowie, and fighter.

If you're using 1086M, have you given any consideration to making bainite or bainite-spine/martensite edge knives? I know lower bainite borders on being the most overated steel crystal shape this side of the West, but whenever a steel amenable to its formation (1086M, 5160, 52100, L6, O1) is being used, it pops into my head if the knife is of a camper or bowie shape.
Click to expand...

Yes, they're a little flat right now. :D I'll work on that...

No, I haven't considered bainite. I'm not convinced there's much to be gained from that, plus I'm not set up for it. No salt pots yet...
 
Phillip Patton said:
I guess I could cut it down to three different steels. Is there a good reason to NOT use a different steel for each knife?

Thanks,
Phillip
Click to expand...

You want to get your JS, right? I have seen JS applicants get more than a little crap/resistance/heartburn for showing "flair"(showing off)

Better to use KISS, and show your flair AFTER you have your stamp.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
You want to get your JS, right? I have seen JS applicants get more than a little crap/resistance/heartburn for showing "flair"(showing off)

Better to use KISS, and show your flair AFTER you have your stamp.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...


That makes sense. I'll try to narrow it down. Thanks!
 
Phillip Patton said:
Yes, they're a little flat right now. :D I'll work on that...
Click to expand...

Cool! I've noticed that my favorite steels from Hitachi as sold as "White Paper #1a" or "Blue Paper Super," never thought they were literally paper. :eek:

Phillip Patton said:
No, I haven't considered bainite. I'm not convinced there's much to be gained from that, plus I'm not set up for it. No salt pots yet...
Click to expand...

There's probably nothing noticeable to gain. I bugged a sword guy to redo a 5160 martensite bowie I have into 5160 martensite/bainite and while it may be much tougher, it wasn't like my stupidity was doing any damage to it when it was mostly martensite. Unless you have a good insulation system for tempering, it might just be wasted fuel for 99.999999994% of knives (and the wrong alloy on that one knife where it would matter).

As for salt pots, I've heard their precision is also valuable for people not bothering with exotic crystal shapes. Cashen; not a bainite cheerleader no matter how many pom-poms he's been offered; uses salt-pots for minimizing decarb and less work finishing his blades after heat-treating.
 
Joss said:
I agree with STeven.
Click to expand...

I changed it to 1084 and W2 for the five. I could use W2 for all of them. Would that be best?
I still think I should use 5160 for the performance test blade...
 
Phillip Patton said:
I changed it to 1084 and W2 for the five. I could use W2 for all of them. Would that be best?
I still think I should use 5160 for the performance test blade...
Click to expand...

The idea is to use the steels that you have the MOST confidence in...and if you have the most confidence in 5160 for your performance blade...use it!!

When the judging committee comes to you and you have 5 knives and 5 steels....it HAS to be neigh on impossible to say that they are all optimally heat cycled and treated....but if you want a hamon on some knives, and not on the others, there should be no problem at all in choosing two great steels.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
It's possible to have a shallow hardening steel and not have a hamon, too - or to have one but not show it, etc.
 
I really like the fact that your five knives are so different. Many times the knives I have seen for JS testing are too similar.

If you are comfortable with all the different steels that you are planning on using, go for it.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I really like the fact that your five knives are so different. Many times the knives I have seen for JS testing are too similar.

If you are comfortable with all the different steels that you are planning on using, go for it.
Click to expand...

I was wondering if there was too much variety. Thanks for easing my mind! :)

I am comfortable with all those steels, but if it would look "show-offy", then I would rather stick with two. If I'm going to endure all the stress and spend all the money for the trip, then I want to do everything I can to improve my chances of passing...
 
Phillip Patton said:
I am comfortable with all those steels, but if it would look "show-offy", then I would rather stick with two. If I'm going to endure all the stress and spend all the money for the trip, then I want to do everything I can to improve my chances of passing...
Click to expand...

It's not the pass/fail so much as the stress involved....so keeping it simple reduces that stress.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
One thing you hear a lot is "USE 5160 FOR YOUR TEST KNIFE!!!!!!! people have passed with 1095, 1084, 1075, O1, L6 etc, etc, but only 5160 is close to foolproof." While this may have held true in the past because so many people have used 5160, it strikes me as a little odd since the most popular steel combo for the MS test is clearly some 10xx steel and 15N20 and the most recent performance failure that I heard of on an MS test involved some air hardening issues caused by the use of a steel that had a moderate amount of chromium in it.......like 5160. I also worry about some of the quality issues that we have seen with commonly available 5160 stock. From a quality standpoint, I would prefer to use some of my Aldo/Mace 1084 assuming that I have any left over in early '09, but now I'm all paranoid:eek:
 
Phillip,

Three things I would suggest. One is make sure your blade finish is free of any decarb, or the "orange peel" look ( if you grind and semi-finish before heat treating you know what I mean). Second, make sure your fit and finish is the best you can make it. Last is just do what you do. Don't "play it safe", but don't go overboard trying to impress the judges. Make what you are used to making, just put a little extra attention to fit and finish and You will do fine.

I have as bad a horror story while going for my MS stamp as I have heard. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. So keep the knives nice and clean, make your usual designs and don't beat yourself up over every little thing.
 
I've judged both the JS and MS levels, and in addition to what Bailey said, I will add the following...

The three most common things that I have seen cause failure at the JS level are attention to detail (like handles and blades being out of line, and/or blade finishes not being even and smooth), individuals who tried to do something that was over their head(s) in order to "impress" the judges...and did it poorly, and finally, which goes back to attention to detail, having 4 knives that would pass with flying colors, and one that looks like it was completed in a day.

There are two ways to view JS or MS testing:

1. You can go for the awards, and if your confident that your abilities are up to it, then great.

2. You can go for passing the test. If this is the case, the key elements are "Super clean", and "Super simple".

Nothing will impress others as much as a simple design, that is superbly executed, especially since your work will be judged by other Bladesmiths.

Looking back at my JS and MS judging experiences, the awards for best JS and MS knives has always gone to the knives that were simple in design, and wonderfully executed.

Remember, your making 5 knives to pass a specific set of known circumstances. Get your knives completed early, and have them critiqued by as many MS as possible. That way, if there are issues, you will have time to correct them, without being rushed at the last minute, which usually leads to mistakes being left unseen. The first question I ask to any individual who fails is "How many Mastersmiths inspected your knives prior to testing?" Without exception, the answer has always been "Well....none."
Theres enough money spent, and enough stress endured going for your JS or MS rating, it just makes good sense to give yourself the best possible chance for success.
 
I very much like the lines on both the fighter and the bowie.... and the advice of both Mr. Bradshaw and Mr. Caffrey seemed eminently reasonable to me:).

BTW, will either the fighter or the bowie (or both) have a sharp top clip?

Guido
 
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