My Custom Knife design seeking input

[Lotus03]

Hi, I am trying to come up with a design to have commissioned to a maker and was wondering if anyone could review it and provide any advice. This is for a field/camping blade that I will use often. Thank you in advance.

1) 1/4” 5160 Carbon Steel or damascus or OU 31

2) Blade – 7.5” - 8"

3) OA – 13” range

4) Midnight finish

5) blk micarta treated in a way to ensure best grip and in line with midnight theme or maybe Japanese style interlock menuki type.

7) Slightly serrated blade towards the butt with a curve cut out before serrated for other uses (forgot the term..)

8) Some type of tsuba concept to prevent slipping onto blade (not sure what would be a great material for this….(ATS-34 …G10??)

9) I am concerned with weight of course

10) I would like the butt to have a hammering capability if needed.

I'm not quite sure on the steel for the blade yet though leaning towards the CS 5160 for functionality. I have read about ou-31 and seems like a special steel type but dont know if it is necessary or available. I'm also wondering how much stronger and functional damascus would be over CS 5160.

many thanks

 

[petah]

ah... Let the maker use the steel she/he feels most comfortable using. Heat Treat is more important than steel choice.

 

[RogerP]

A couple questions:

1) What is a midnight finish?

2) Are you able to show a sketch of what you have in mind? It's hard to comment on a design from specifications alone.

3) Are you able to show a pic or three of knives from makers that you like, even if they are not an exact match for what you have in mind?

4) Knives don't make terribly good hammers or saws. With only a couple inches (at most) of serrations, what is it that you think you can saw through more efficiently than you culd chop or slice through, using the knife as a knife?

Roger

 

[Lotus03]

A couple questions:

1) What is a midnight finish?

2) Are you able to show a sketch of what you have in mind? It's hard to comment on a design from specifications alone.

3) Are you able to show a pic or three of knives from makers that you like, even if they are not an exact match for what you have in mind?

4) Knives don't make terribly good hammers or saws. With only a couple inches (at most) of serrations, what is it that you think you can saw through more efficiently than you culd chop or slice through, using the knife as a knife?

Roger

Hi, its basically black look of carbon steel 5160 and black micarta handle. I've seen many examples of field knives that had serrations on them and also some that had a piece of steel on the butt in case you had to break or hammer something in an emergency. I can look for pics. thanks a lot

 

[RogerP]

Hi, its basically black look of carbon steel 5160 and black micarta handle. I've seen many examples of field knives that had serrations on them and also some that had a piece of steel on the butt in case you had to break or hammer something in an emergency. I can look for pics. thanks a lot

Thanks - but I'm still not quite clear.

1) 5160 or any other carbon steel doesn't have a "black look" unless it is stained or coated - which process did you have in mind?

An example of a coated blade is the top knife below - one which would meet your design requirements save for the hammer / saw applications:

2) I don't doubt that field knives have been made aplenty with serrations and big thick hammer-ready butt caps. My question to you is what your intended applications for these design features are. You say this is a knife you plan to use a lot camping / in the field - so what is it in your past experience that suggests those design features would be helpful? Particularly the serrations? What is it you plan to saw through with a couple inches of serrations? How do you intend to sharpen those serrations when they go dull?

Since you asked for design input, I'm inviting you to consider the real practical benefits (or absence thereof) of those design features.

Roger

 

[wildmike]

Roger good input as always! And lovely knives as well. I really like that top one.

Lotus03. Are you thinking of a striking surface on the rear of the handle? Such as on the U.S. Pilots Survival knife? It's purpose is to allow a striking surface to allow the knife to be hammered into the work. It really isn't intended to allow the knife to be used as a hammer.

Or are you thinking more along the lines of the thinner metal plates on the pommel of puukos?

The strike plate was a good addition on my old pilots survival knife it allowed me to use the knife to carve sockets and holes through wood.

I'm just thinking it may be a good idea to decide what you would be using that feature for.

5160 is a very good steel for hard use blades. Thoroughly unfamiliar with the other you mention. However ther are many others that would serve excellently as well. AS for myself I'm fairly hooked on forged 5160.

Give some careful thought to Rogers input concerning the serrations. Personaly I don't have a single blade with serrations I prefer a razor sharp plain edge. serrations are usualy positioned on the last couple inches of edge closest to the hand and I like this area to be plain edged for close work (carving, notching etc.). If I have to cut rope the razor edge goes through it just fine, if it is large diameter stuff then use a baton n the blade.

 

[Lotus03]

Yes the top one Roger but not as black that thank you. let me refine and clarify my thoughts:

1) CS 5160 coated dark. But would like to explore if damascus would make a much stronger blade and if that could be coated dark color.

2) black handle either black micarta treated so it would provide an excellent grip or the traditional type of Japanese wrap menuki you might see on some samurai blades.

3) small tsuba on handle or something else to ensure no slippage of hand onto the blade when in use.

3) some type of "hammering butt" either a cap or some style where steel butt sticks out a bit and could be used for emergency. I just like the concept and have seen it on different knives with cap or other style.

4) serrations might not be necessary and impractical and difficult to sharpen in the field. I could leave that off.

5) I dont know how to attach a picture of the SOG Creed. This is size of blade and OA length i would like. 7.5 blade and 12.5-13 in total length...1/4 inch thick. That tsuba concept or something else to prevent slippage but dont know what would be and excellent material for the tsuba.

http://sogknives.com/store/CD-02.html#286

Thanks a lot for the response and pictures.

 

[wildmike]

otus03.

5160 is a great choice for what your wanting. It is an incredibly tough steel. It is prefered by several makers of hard use knives here on the forums, Bill Siegle being one of them. Damascus would be much more expensive with very little if any gain in performance, and coating it would eliminate the look of the damascus (kinda like makin "the Lady Godiva" wear clothes).

Black canvas micarta provides an excellent and durable grip. It can be sanded or bead blasted to provide even more traction. But be aware that there is a fine line between good traction and too much, too much and you'll have hot spots and blisters with heavy use. Most good makers can attach a hammer pomell on a knife. It will however add to the cost due to increased fitting and finishing.

A single sided guard is a good idea. I din't think you need a tsuba which is basicaly a sword guard. Nor would a wrap as you've mentioned be very advisable on a field knife. Too many problems keeping it clean in the field as well as too much traction and irritation to the hand in hard use.

Depending on the maker you may be able to have the guard made of etched wrought iron which is naturayly subdued finish or stainless teel and have it coated.

As to the coating as yourself why you are wnating it coated and what purpose you want the coating to serve. If it is just for anti-reflective purposes then that can be achieved with just the use of the wrought iron guard and bead blasted or other non reflective finish on the blade. 5160 is fairly corrosion resistant and doesn't rust as easily as some carbon steels due to its chromium content. it will patina a bit over time and will rust if not maintained, but with just common sense maintenance I have never had any of my 5160 blades rust. They are all non reflective 400 or 600 grit finish.

 

[NoahL]

Yes the top one Roger but not as black that thank you. let me refine and clarify my thoughts:

1) CS 5160 coated dark. But would like to explore if damascus would make a much stronger blade and if that could be coated dark color.

2) black handle either black micarta treated so it would provide an excellent grip or the traditional type of Japanese wrap menuki you might see on some samurai blades.

3) small tsuba on handle or something else to ensure no slippage of hand onto the blade when in use.

3) some type of "hammering butt" either a cap or some style where steel butt sticks out a bit and could be used for emergency. I just like the concept and have seen it on different knives with cap or other style.

4) serrations might not be necessary and impractical and difficult to sharpen in the field. I could leave that off.

5) I dont know how to attach a picture of the SOG Creed. This is size of blade and OA length i would like. 7.5 blade and 12.5-13 in total length...1/4 inch thick. That tsuba concept or something else to prevent slippage but dont know what would be and excellent material for the tsuba.

http://sogknives.com/store/CD-02.html#286

Thanks a lot for the response and pictures.

Damascus will not be any stronger than modern steels. As for the coating, I'm not sure why you want it, but are you thinking of blued steel?

Micarta doesn't need to be treated to have an excellent grip--it just has an excellent grip by nature as long as it isn't polished, and even then it isn't bad. A wrap would be bad idea on a field knife unless it was soaked in shellac.

A finger guard would be more advisable in my mind than a tsuba, which is a guard that protrudes from the knife on all sides. A tsuba will limit your comfortable gripping options if you choose to choke up on the knife, which i think you will considering the length you are wanting.

A "hammering butt" would be easy for most makers who do through-tang construction, I would think.

Yes, drop the serrations. On a knife as large as this one you are going to want it to be as sharp as possible for the first few inches in front of the guard and serrations aren't going to help you cut anything with a knife like this.

As far as materials go, leave that to the knifemaker. If you want to pick your handle material, fine, but everything else you should probably leave to the knifemaker to choose. They will know what best to use for a guard to butt up against your handle material and accent the blade, and the blade steel needs to be heat treated properly, so as long as it is it doesn't really matter too much what kind of carbon steel it is.

 

[Lotus03]

otus03.

5160 is a great choice for what your wanting. It is an incredibly tough steel. It is prefered by several makers of hard use knives here on the forums, Bill Siegle being one of them. Damascus would be much more expensive with very little if any gain in performance, and coating it would eliminate the look of the damascus (kinda like makin "the Lady Godiva" wear clothes).

Black canvas micarta provides an excellent and durable grip. It can be sanded or bead blasted to provide even more traction. But be aware that there is a fine line between good traction and too much, too much and you'll have hot spots and blisters with heavy use. Most good makers can attach a hammer pomell on a knife. It will however add to the cost due to increased fitting and finishing.

A single sided guard is a good idea. I din't think you need a tsuba which is basicaly a sword guard. Nor would a wrap as you've mentioned be very advisable on a field knife. Too many problems keeping it clean in the field as well as too much traction and irritation to the hand in hard use.

Depending on the maker you may be able to have the guard made of etched wrought iron which is naturayly subdued finish or stainless teel and have it coated.

As to the coating as yourself why you are wnating it coated and what purpose you want the coating to serve. If it is just for anti-reflective purposes then that can be achieved with just the use of the wrought iron guard and bead blasted or other non reflective finish on the blade. 5160 is fairly corrosion resistant and doesn't rust as easily as some carbon steels due to its chromium content. it will patina a bit over time and will rust if not maintained, but with just common sense maintenance I have never had any of my 5160 blades rust. They are all non reflective 400 or 600 grit finish.

Thanks Mike. Ok let me revise:

1) CS 5160 coated dark like a midnight dark blue or a lighter charcoal..not completely black.

2) black micarta handle sanded or bead blasted to provide even more traction but not too much. The traditional type of Japanese wrap menuki you might see on some samurai blades can be resin treated to resist moisture and grime I've read...and if it's good enough for the Samurai in the field why can't it be good enough for me??

3) a guard made of etched wrought iron which is naturally subdued finish or stainless steel and have it coated. I want to explore this area more for options and my study.

3) hammer pommel on butt

4) 7.5 blade and 12.5-13 in total length...1/4 inch thick.

5) The lighter black or charcoal/dark dark blue coating is for non reflective and also look/style

6) holes would be 2 on the handle, 1 in the hammer pommel, and 1 on each side of guard/tsuba/bolster

7) heat treated

i think that's where I'm at at the moment.

Thanks a lot for your comments

 

[RogerP]

1) CS 5160 coated dark. But would like to explore if damascus would make a much stronger blade and if that could be coated dark color.

No, damascus won't make the blade any stronger - blade geometry, heat treatment and differential hardening will be the main contributing factors here. And coating damascus just seems.... wrong.

2) black handle either black micarta treated so it would provide an excellent grip or the traditional type of Japanese wrap menuki you might see on some samurai blades.

I would go micarta. I'm not a huge fan of wrapped handles on a using knife, and unless it's impregnated or coated to the point that it's almost plasticized, it's not a material you want to get wet. Oh - and handle design and ergonomics will have more to do with providing a secure - and just as importantly - a comfortable grip, than the material used.

3) small tsuba on handle or something else to ensure no slippage of hand onto the blade when in use.

Yes, I tend to prefer a guard of some kind on a large using knfe.

3) some type of "hammering butt" either a cap or some style where steel butt sticks out a bit and could be used for emergency. I just like the concept and have seen it on different knives with cap or other style.

That shouldn't be a problem for most makers.

4) serrations might not be necessary and impractical and difficult to sharpen in the field. I could leave that off.

Bingo.

5) I dont know how to attach a picture of the SOG Creed. This is size of blade and OA length i would like. 7.5 blade and 12.5-13 in total length...1/4 inch thick. That tsuba concept or something else to prevent slippage but dont know what would be and excellent material for the tsuba.

Outside of the Japanese context, we'd call that a double guard.

Sounds like you are close to having most of the parameters worked out.

Roger

 

[Lotus03]

thanks Noah. yes i think i might be thinking of blued steel. Is that what this is? if you scroll down and look at the stalker knife thats what im thinking about.

 

[Lotus03]

i think you guys might be hinting that this might be too long. I feel comofrtable with 7.5 inch blade and 12.5 inch total length for this concept

 

[Mike Turner]

3) hammer pommel on butt

I have had a few requests for this and knowing how people can be, I tend to recommend a full tang knife and either a soldered and pinned butt cap, or a integral but cap. If you work with a smith he could even forge weld a butt cap on of a different steel like you are wanting a 5160 blade and you want wrought iron fittings. I would not be comfortable knowing a customer would use a through tang to hammer on. There are to many things that could break or bend as those tangs are small and usually are not hardened and in some cases have a threaded rod soldered or pinned to the tang and they will not take that kind of abuse.

Just my 2 cents worth

 

[Lotus03]

ok there's more to think about with that.

I should be considering a forged knife and not a stamped knife right?

 

[RogerP]

ok there's more to think about with that.

I should be considering a forged knife and not a stamped knife right?

You should be considering a forged knife (steel heated and shaped with a hammer on an anvil) or a stock removal knife (bar stock ground away to shape the blade) - I'm not sure what a stamped knife is, but I'm sure you don't want one. My preference is for a carbon steel forged blade, but it's not the only way to go.

Roger

 

[NoahL]

In looking at the Stalker knife in the link you provided, yes, I think you mean chemical bluing.

ok there's more to think about with that.

I should be considering a forged knife and not a stamped knife right?

I don't know of any custom makers that stamp knives--that's a factory thing. Custom makers will usually do it one of two ways--cut out a blank with hand or power tools, waterjet machines, or CNC machines and then do the grinding by hand or with a jig, or they will forge it and do the grinding by hand or with a jig. If they forge it you will have more options available to you, but the labor costs tend to be higher.

 

[wildmike]

Your thinking forged blade instead of stock removal as the method of manufacture. Only large industrial manufacturers stamp out blade blanks.

A forged blade gives many advantages in performance, however, many makers who use stock removal produce exceptional blades due to their heat treating capabilities.

Size wise you are not going too big at all. Personaly my favorite knives for wilderness survival use are an average of a 10 inch blade for the heavy stuff. I carry a smaller blade for the detail stuff. 7.5"-8" is medium sized.

I do recommend that you give yourself at least a 5" handle preferably 6" with a downward cant or curve.

 

[Lotus03]

ok thanks a lot. Forged is what i want if possible for this concept. Interesting what you say about blade size. I believe military uses 5-7 inches for survival knives anything larger can be too cumbersome. I have to think about size some more and can make another one soon.

 

[NoahL]

ok thanks a lot. Forged is what i want if possible for this concept. Interesting what you say about blade size. I believe military uses 5-7 inches for survival knives anything larger can be too cumbersome. I have to think about size some more and can make another one soon.

I like forged knives myself, although I only have two of them. As for the size, it's a personal preference thing really but I like a 6.5" blade myself. I find that unless I'm doing food prep I don't need anything longer than that until you get into machete sizes