My first JS knife for Atlanta, big camp bowie...

Reguarding the using of damascus for JS stamps.

I just got off the phone with BR Hughes who oversees the judging of the JS stamps. He said...
"For several years now we have tried and tried to explain to the guys that no damascus means no damascus. This coming judging we will clamp down on it and follow the rules of no damascus. This means fittings or any other item that relates to the knife being judged. If they want to dare us then we will take the dare".

Guys in my opinion, I would sure not take it. I know some of you specialize in it and work it fine but for those 5 knives I surely would not submitt it. I think they will bust you if you do. You only have to do 5 as they ask but I would also take a 6th just in case one was damaged enroute which has happened.
You can then go back to doing what you do best, whatever that is.

Anvil, if it is welded and munipulated then it is damascus, makes no difference if there is just two layers. It would then be a pattern welded steel.

Ed Caffrey will be moving up to MS judging this year.

Good luck guys.
 
Nice knife Mitch, sounds like you'll have to sell that one and make another.Good luck come June.

Bill
 
fisk said:
Reguarding the using of damascus for JS stamps.

I just got off the phone with BR Hughes who oversees the judging of the JS stamps. He said...
"For several years now we have tried and tried to explain to the guys that no damascus means no damascus. This coming judging we will clamp down on it and follow the rules of no damascus. This means fittings or any other item that relates to the knife being judged. If they want to dare us then we will take the dare".

Guys in my opinion, I would sure not take it. I know some of you specialize in it and work it fine but for those 5 knives I surely would not submitt it. I think they will bust you if you do. You only have to do 5 as they ask but I would also take a 6th just in case one was damaged enroute which has happened.
You can then go back to doing what you do best, whatever that is.

Anvil, if it is welded and munipulated then it is damascus, makes no difference if there is just two layers. It would then be a pattern welded steel.

Ed Caffrey will be moving up to MS judging this year.

Good luck guys.
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Anvil that sucks about the damascus bit. But hey I think that knife is a beautiful looking knife, and anyone would be proud to own a blade that is skillfully crafted like that one. I dont post much but ive seen your work and it always amazes me. Just keep your chin up and drive on. ;)
 
First of all, thanks to all for the compliments on my now "not JS" test knife. I suppose I need to post those pics over on the for sale forum, heck, I don't even know what to ask for it. Anyway thanks to jimmyseymour, R. Duncan, Nick Wheeler and especially to Jerry Fisk for setting things straight on what to take along for judging. I find it strange though that if there's apparently such a problem with this that anyone in the ABS would be waiting for a "dare". Why not just post a small adendum to the judging guidelines page concerning this issue rather then to allow it to boil over at the show? If I read R. Duncan right, if you lay a scabbard up on the table, they will judge it?? That's certainly not in the guidlines nor does it say anything about it on the ABS test page either. I guess we're supposed to just figure that out by word of mouth amongst ourselves. That's comforting to know especially in light of B.R. Hughs' revelation that the rules which heretofore have not been enforced, now will be enforced. No doubt people will show up this year with knives that fit the " dare" catagory and I'm sure many will cite having seen others pass with the very same type of fittings not a show ago! The main difference between the JS and MS knives, both for cut and bend and in the five to be judged is the "blade". It can be damascus for all five or just the dagger for the MS. In all this time I've been thinking of doing this, reading the ABS JS test pages and guidelines, talking to both MS and JS smiths at hammerins and such, it never occured to me they were talking about anything but the blade of the knife: not the furniture. No doubt having read the "tone" conveyed to Mr. Fisk by Mr. Hughs, apparently many others read it the same way I did. Fortunately by way of this thread, forum, and those of you kind enough to post, I can now go to Atlanta armed with enough information to perhaps pass my five knives. It is disconcerting however that it had to come from a lengthy discussion here rather than what could be put in a single paragraph on our ABS web site.

compliments and regards,
mitch
 
Really nice knife Mitch, sorry to hear about the thing on the rules.
I'm not an ABS member so my opinion doesn't matter much (or at all) but it really seems to me they need to organize things better if things like this are happening. I don't understand why they don't allow damascus anyhow. They're judging the quality of your work, if you want to raise the degree of difficulty on your own I don't see why they'd care. They can still say whether or not your work is at the level needed to pass. I suppose maybe they want to see a hand rubbed finish that wouldn't necessarily show up on a damascus blade, but that still doesn't explain fittings. Oh well I'm not in it so I suppose this doesn't even make 2 cents :rolleyes:

You shouldn't have any trouble getting rid of that knife though. Its an awfully nice peice.
 
Mitch and others.
At the ABS sponsered hammer ins as well as the blade show itself, they have for several years given a class that explains how best to go for your JS or MS stamps. These classes are put on my people that will be in the judging room. It greatly benifits anyone that is going for their stamp to attend one of these. In these classes they have explained their direction and what the guidlines state.
As a judge, I know it can get aggravating in the judging room when some of the guys try to push it to see what they can get away with. Where I judge in the MS room, we have guys trying to put super glue in damascus flaws to cover it up, all types of things are used to slip it past the judges. Crap, I know that wont work, I tried things years ago to see if it would work or not, it dont. There are many other instances, such as when you tell a person that this particular knife will not pass the judging and dang if some of them dont bring the same knife back as is, the next year. I guess to see if we really meant it or not. The judges try to be as fair as they can and even bend over backwards to make it fair. That JS judges just kept bending over on the damascus issue and enough was enough. One applicant even said after he got his stamp "Well, I used damascus anyway". Coments like that does not help and you can maybe see now where the "dare" part comes in a bit better. I have even seen woodfiller put in the handles to cover up where the guy decided to redrill a pin hole and got pissy when he failed.
There were far too many guys that relied upon simply having a damascus blade and thought that alone should get them their stamps and I mean that alone. An alligator could have chewed out a better design and finish but it was damascus. Some threw tantrums inside the room and hollered that they should have got the stamp because by george that was damascus on that knife. The JS judges simply want good clean work. Thats all.
They are not trying to make it harder on anyone, nay, they encourage everyone that would like to try for it.

Another note, if any of you are thinking about going for your JS or MS stamp please attend one of the classes put on at the hammer ins or at the blade show. It can help on what the judges are looking for and what to do etc. This is an important step so it helps to get all the info right.

Anvil, Greg is a really good one to show your pieces to. He is an excellent judge firm but fair. He goes to MS judging this year. Greg is our floater, he goes back and forth every couple of years.
For any of you who does not know how judges are chosen etc. There is a few set judges on each team. A few are chosen to judge JS judging and have to serve there for 2-3 years before they are moved up to MS judging. They have learned what to look for and how to judge by then. At least one of the invited judges are kept on while new ones are brought in. These way we have guys training guys how to judge what to look for. An applicant never has to face a room where all the judges are green and just grasping around as they used to do. In essence we have a training program in place so it is firm yet fair.

As head judge for the MS I dont vote, I just float the room making sure judging goes smooth, making sure no personalities are involved and I have to be the one that says yay or nay. In both rooms if the vote goes nay then it is explained to the applicant why he did not make it and at that point it is explained how to fix the problem. For the MS stamp you can only go for it a max of 3 times. After that you can no longer go for it. We had applicants going for it 5-7 times and most of the time with the same knives. Figure that one out when you have time.

You guys can do it. Might get a little tight on the nerves etc, but it is very doable. I wish yall the best of luck for those going for it.
My ole grandpa used to say, "remember that the faint of heart never gets to have sex with a wildcat", we never knew why we said that, we evenutally just had him committed and went on to live our lives.
I will be happy to answer any questions you may have reguarding the testing. Good luck at it.
 
Mitch - beautiful knife.

Regarding the ABS decision not to allow damascus fittings on knives submitted for JS judging, I, an apprentice smith in the ABS, would also like to offer some brief comments. The change in judging guidelines that will be implemented in 2005 should be (or should have been) clearly communicated to ABS members well in advance of the show. If one reads the guidelines as shown on the ABS website, one sees the phrase "the knives to be judged must be made of plain carbon steel (no Damascus)." A rational individual will interpret that to mean the blades must be made of plain carbon steel - certainly not the handles and guards - which then suggests that the reference to damascus also applies only to the blades. In fact, all the references to damascus on that webpage specify only that the blades can not be of damascus. Nowhere is there a specific reference to damascus guards or fittings.

The judging guidelines as posted on the ABS site also make no mention of damascus being ineligible as a material for guards and fittings on knives judged for JS.

Quite frankly, I fail to see why damascus guards should be a problem at all. When it comes to fittings, damascus is simply a material, just as stainless steel, titanium, wrought iron, or even micarta are materials one might choose to employ. The ABS, again on the website, states that "the applicant is advised to submit only completed knives that show the applicant's best work," which, for many makers (including some that have commented on this thread) may include fine damascus guards to complement their forged carbon steel blades.

Since applicants have passed with damascus fittings as recently as 2004, it would, in my opinion, be improper to disqualify applicants this year without having properly informed them well ahead of time of the change in practice. Word of mouth is not a sufficient means of communication within an organization as large and diverse as the ABS.

I imagine that this year, at least one or two individuals will submit exceptional knives for testing, having followed all the published guidelines, and find their knives deemed ineligible due to a new interpretation of existing rules or a new practice that had not been communicated to them prior to their arriving at the show. That, in my opinion, would be terribly unjust.
 
fisk said:
As a judge, I know it can get aggravating in the judging room when some of the guys try to push it to see what they can get away with.
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Mr. Fisk,
I would respectfully submit that many applicants submit knives for judging not to see what they can get away with, but to present the very best work they can do. As I stated in my previous post, the ABS states that "the applicant is advised to submit only completed knives that show the applicant's best work." Apparently, some applicants are now learning, much to their dismay, that that statement only applies if their best work does not include damascus fittings.
 
My ole grandpa used to say, "remember that the faint of heart never gets to have sex with a wildcat", we never knew why we said that, we evenutally just had him committed and went on to live our lives.
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That was funny. I'm hoping, with some luck, to go for my JS stamp in '06. I'll be sure to attend that class at Blade this year or at the MD Hammer-in.
 
The use of any kind of Damascus on a JS test knife being a no no is not a new thing. When I went for my JS stamp two years ago I was told NO Damascus of any kind. My five knives had no Damascus. There where several others who did have damascus and although I thought that it was a little unfair for them to pass with Damascus fittings when I had been told that there was a good chance that I whould be told that I was ineligible to test because of the Damascus. Their knives were more that good enough to pass and I was glad that they received their stamp. My point here is that this is not a new thing it is just being enforced as it should be.
 
Jerry,

People are smart enough to figure out what works and what doesn't. If historically the ABS has said "no damascus fittings" and then judges have not cared one way or the other, you can't fault people who've learned to disregard comments and only care about what was actually done. If you're going to change the policy or how you enforce it, you should make it clearer to people. That's my humble opinion.

Reg. damascus on fittings, I think it's a weird rule. Can people still use, say, mokume or timascus on fittings? If the answer is no, it should be made very clear. If the answer is yes, then I guess I don't understand why mokume would be allowed but not damascus (not even stainless damascus not "home made").

Again, I'm not saying people should not follow the rules, but that people will feel less resentful or confused if the rules are not arbitrary or arbitrarily enfirced.
 
NickWheeler said:
if you don't call forge welded and twisted material damascus, what would you call it?
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Ferrous Mokume. :D

It's a beautiful knife, Mitch.

This is from the ABS JS Test page:

- Handle material is irrelevant and solely the choice of the applicant.
- Blade Material:* The Journeyman Smith may test with any forged steel of his or her choice except Damascus.
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That seems pretty clear. It's specific that the blade material must not be damascus, and that it doesn't matter what anything else is made from. If this is different from the actual rules, it needs to be changed on the ABS site, guys! If you fixed the published standards, a lot of this debate would settle down, I'll wager.

My $.02.

-F. Allin Kahrl
BS Master (thanks Matt) and General PITA
 
I may be wrong on this, but I was told that a few had sloppy guard fittings, and it was blamed on the damascus pattern, so they got away with it. I'm not sure on the reasons why, but that's the way it is. Yeah, we definitly need to update the web page, but at the same time the word was put out. This may not been the most proffesional and fair way, but it is what happened. Anvil, sorry that this thread has gone a different route, I forgot to tell you earlier that was a really great knife. Keep up the good work.

Jimmy
 
I will not use any damascus on my test knives. Two of my knives will be folders and I just can't see SS or NS bolsters on one of my folders :confused: just wouldn't be right.
I can see both sides of this discussion but I think the rules on the ABS website should be changed very soon as most go there for info as I did. Also I've had a couple of Master Smiths tell me damascus fittings were OK on JS test knives in the past year. So not all know about this, even in the upper ranks of the ABS. I am very glad to have found out before I started making my test knives though because I use damascus fittings on all my knives and have for quite a few years. :) Thanks Jerry for making this clear.

Don Hanson lll sunfishforge.com
 
Guys; the ABS site states " no damascus", not " no damascus blades". It has been on the site for quite some time. In the show requirement section.
We are mainly concerned in the JS judging that the work is to a high standard. In the past we have had some incidents of work that is of very high quality damascus but the fit and finish left something to be desired. Some of the applicants could not understand that great damascus does not necessarily make a great knife. The question kept coming up; "how could you pass that simple carbon knife and not my mind blowing damascus piece"?
Other applicants thought that those knives that had damascus on them were recieving more favorable attention.
Too end the debate and put the whole issue to rest was simple. No Damascus.
If you can cleanly execute five different knives in carbon steel we have no doubt as to your ability.
Those are the rules. No Damascus.
I will be happy to discuss the judging procedure to anyone with questions.
Mike Williams
 
Joss, I feel that mokume is ok. I don't think I would go on Timascus. The question i have here is, why would a person want to push it.
If you want to make a personal point the judging room is not the place, in my opinion.
mike
 
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