My handle finish needs help.

Patrice Lemée

Patrice Lemée

Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
5,703
I am not happy with the wood finish. I've sanded it to 600 and the buffed it with white rouge. Some black dust coming from the steel and the brass stained the wood a little so it's not the bright deep burned orange it could be. Not sure what I should have done. Maybe oil the wood and sand to protect it before buffing. Anyone ideas?

A couple of crappy pics. I'll take better ones tomorrow in the sunlight.

ned_knife_14th_22.jpg

ned_knife_14th_23.jpg


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Pad
 
Your handle looks decent. I would be more worried about the scratches in the blade.
 
Padrig said:
I am not happy with the wood finish. I've sanded it to 600 and the buffed it with white rouge. Some black dust coming from the steel and the brass stained the wood a little so it's not the bright deep burned orange it could be. Not sure what I should have done. Maybe oil the wood and sand to protect it before buffing. Anyone ideas?

A couple of crappy pics. I'll take better ones tomorrow in the sunlight.



Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Pad
Click to expand...


I know some folks use a few layers of super glue and then LIGHTLY buff it until it shines like glass.
 
Bailey, I know about the scratches. Since this is for a friend who does 14th century reenactment I left a few things rougher for a more "period" look.

At least the scratches I know how to remedy but not the handle wood.

Thanks for the tip Garrett.

Pad
 
I have seen some blades from the 13th century that had no scratches.
Why does "period" always mean "less work"?

If you are just trying to buff the fitings try wraping the handle in some blue tape.
Mace
 
You don't need four rivets in that handle (not much to do about it now, though). It looks crowded. The tang nut will be ground down in finishing,I assume? Also, is one rivet out of alignment with the others?

Before you did any handle work, you should have finished the blade. It is a cop-out to say that poor finishing is " Antique "looking.

Tape off the brass and steel and hand sand the blade. Hand sand to 2500 grit and buff with a clean cloth. On an open grain like that wood, you will get all kinds of black stuff if you buff with compound on a wheel. A final hand buffing with carnuba or padding lacquer will give it a nice shine.
Stacy
 
I'd do a bunch of coats of a tung oil finish and not even approach the grinder with open grained wood like that. Buffing with compound will result in what you have...a shiny handle with dark pockets of buffing compound in every nook and cranny. If anything, buff with a loose wheel with no compound.
 
Also, if youre buffing, you may want to tape off that brass. It will turn a brand new buffing wheel black in about ten seconds, and then stain anything it touches that is soft (like wood) and sometimes is a bitch to get those stains out.
 
Buffing wheels ruin more handles than just about anything else in the shop.

Burnishing is more appropriate.
You are trying to smooth the surface of a "bale' of fibers, when you are working with wood. If you use a buffer you drive the compound between the wood fibers.
Use the edge of a piece of 10oz leather to burnish the wood surface. Use pressure when you burnish; rubbing lightly does not accomplish much.
Hand sand to 1200 or so then get the leather out and go to work.
Burnishing works well on steel also, once you get the scratches out.

Good luck, Fred
 
Thanks for all the tips. It all makes sense.

I sincerely did not use the "period" thing as a cop out. I have to admit that this is my 4th knife and the first real one from start to finish. I ain't that good at it and correcting those mistake would have taken me lots of time heck, probably could not do it if I wanted to. :(
So I started doing a knife I would give away knowing it would be less than perfect and still be "ok" in the context it was used. Not trying to make a perfect knife and when I could not, labeling it "period". Anyway. Hopefully the person will appreciate the gift and I will have learned some things. And I did with your generous help. Now onto the next one.

Thanks again.

Pad
 
Padrig said:
Thanks for all the tips. It all makes sense.

I sincerely did not use the "period" thing as a cop out. I have to admit that this is my 4th knife and the first real one from start to finish. I ain't that good at it and correcting those mistake would have taken me lots of time heck, probably could not do it if I wanted to. :(
So I started doing a knife I would give away knowing it would be less than perfect and still be "ok" in the context it was used. Not trying to make a perfect knife and when I could not, labeling it "period". Anyway. Hopefully the person will appreciate the gift and I will have learned some things. And I did with your generous help. Now onto the next one.

Thanks again.

Pad
Click to expand...


I'm sure your friend will appreciate the gift. I will disagree with you that you can't correct some of your mistakes. You can do alot more sanding on that blade, you have put alot of time in this thing already, more sanding will only help.
i'm not saying you will make a perfect knife (I wish I could) but you can make it better.
I think we all would like some of our project to be finished when there is still work to be done.
My advise to you is when you think you are finished look at you project and ask YOURSELF is this the best I can do. I f the answer is yes then you are through, if you can do better then the work goes on...
hang in there it's not easy to do the best you can do.

Mike
 
Hi Pad! Well, you asked for it eh ;) Listen, think about what everyone said, Mace and Stacy had good comments (they all did, almost:o) The only thing I would think about (and I guess this would ruin the period look) would be to grind a index finger cut-out, from the very front bottom of the brass bolster, forward for about a 1/2", maybe a touch more. This way a person wouldn't cut themselves if they were poking at something, plus is also makes an ending place for sharpening, instead of sharpening right into the brass bolster.
Or, don't mess with it. Everyone had good and interesting ideas, so this is my .02 cents.:D You're pretty close to having a nice #4, just a little more elbow grease.:D I still have my 4th knife, and no-one is ever going to see it except me. I'm still trying to find a place to bury it:p
 
Thanks Mike, I will try to get rid of those scratches.

Rocker, thanks for the good words and it's ok. I know this is all positive criticism. That's why I posted here. ;) That's the only way to improve right? Like you say I will not cut a finger notch, it would ruin the look I am after.

Pad
 
Go to Home Depot and buy a spray can of low gloss top coat. Spray the handle with repeated layers until you don't see any more bubble appear from the wood. Let it dry overnight and use an old cloth wheel on your buffer to take it off. You are going to think that you really messed the handle up because it will come off in globs and goobers but keep at it. You will eventually remove all of the coating except what stays in the grain of the wood. This will prevent compound from lodging in the wood. I usually follow up with a little wax for the final finish.
 
bladsmth said:
You don't need four rivets in that handle (not much to do about it now, though). It looks crowded. The tang nut will be ground down in finishing,I assume? Also, is one rivet out of alignment with the others?
Click to expand...

Five rivets for looks not need. I think it looks ok, actually like some knives from that period that had multiple rivets. Tang nut is done. The alignment thing I am guessing is because the handle shape that gives this impression. Here are a few pics that may give a better idea.

ned_knife_14th_24.jpg

ned_knife_14th_25.jpg

ned_knife_14th_26.jpg


Mace said:
I have seen some blades from the 13th century that had no scratches.
Click to expand...

Yes, and I have seen gilded suits of armour meant for kings. That doesn't mean that it would be appropriate for a lower class persona. And I would wager that there were more knives of lesser quality than of higher quality just based on economics. But I am no history expert so take this for what it's worth. ;)

Pad
 
Looks good. I like it ( didn't mean to imply that it wasn't a good looking knife).
The extra finishing work made a huge difference.

1...2....3...4........5 yep thats five. Five is a better balance than four (don't know why i looked and thought four). Avoid even numbers above two (Design engineering tip ) for a smooth look. Even numbers look mechanical to the brain. Try it - take a square of wood and evenly space three, four, five and six screws along the edges. See which look funny. The other thing is, it is harder to evenly space and align more than three rivets, and your eye can detect things your ruler and straight edge can't measure.



In the days when knives and swords were weapons...and your life depended on them....finishes and embellishment varied, but deeper scratches were never acceptable. A scratch was thought to be a starting point for future failure of the blade ( which was mostly true, especially in the days of water quench and no controlled HT equipment).

Period (older antique) knives usually had a stoned surface. This was attained by working the blade surface down to a smooth state on water stones of finer and finer grade ( first on rotary stones, then by hand to finish). Final shine ( on those blades that would sell for higher prices) was attained by burnishing with antler and steel burnishers, and with rubbing compounds (polishes). The main polishing compound was finely ground scale collected by heating a piece of steel up and cooling it down, beating off the scale, repeating until you have a good batch of scale, then grind very fine in a mortar and pestle. Mix the powder with oil and filter through several layers of cloth, to remove any pieces of larger grit. This will polish the blade and darken the color of the metal. It does take time and hard work by hand, but putting a good (or fair) finish on a hand done blade is worth it. A trick that will give a nice "period "look to a blade once finished (especially if it has been buffed and looks too shiny) is to use fine valve grinding compound ( a couple bucks at the auto store) on the blade and hand rub it for a while. This leaves a nice matt finish that looks centuries old.......and takes about 10 minutes. It also disguises a lot of marks and scratches....Try it, I think it is exactly what you are looking for as the final "old look".

Tips on making reproduction and "Period" knives.
Keep it simple - embellishment was for the very wealthy and royalty. It played no part in function, which was what the common user needed.
Use simple lower carbon steels - 1050/1060/1070 would be more of the proper steel, even 1040 for swords.
Use simple materials - common woods with straight grains. Iron, copper,bone, antler, or brass hardware.
Use a tang nut or a peened tang - if it will be used for reenactment ( and get wet/dirty/messed up), make it a take down style. This allows for cleaning (especially under the handle where most older blades fail by the tang rusting out), and for refinishing the blade.It make s tightening up loose handles easier,too.
Finish by hand - The look of hand finishing is so different from a machine finish that the knife will clearly show that it is only a quick modern copy of an antique. Done right - with the time spent- it may look nearly exactly like the origional....just newer.
Keep up the good work...and lets see #5.
Stacy
 
I think you now have a fine looking knife, even better as its one of your first!

I think this knife would have looked great with 10 pins, in a coffin handle style (pairs of smaller pins at top and bottom of handle), 5 pairs of two.
 
I see what you mean about even numbers Stacy. Now ain't that something. I love to learn new things.

Thanks for the info on making and finishing a period knife. I love the scale one. I have to try that one. Plus it would be appreciated by people who want a more "as it was done then' approach. Now see what you've done I feel like making another period knife. ;) I will keep it simpler as you say. This one was "supposed" to be simple at the beginning but things got out of hand. And great minds think alike David since it was also supposed to have more and smaller pins. Can't remember why I changed it but it would have looked better I agree.

Thanks again for the good words and help. Now to #5...

Pad
 
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