My Japanese Sword

W

white avenger

Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
80
Is there anyone here who might be able to give me some help on authenticating this sword or telling if it's a fraud? I've had opinions varying from it being an authentic Japanese sword, early 1900's or earlier, to just a piece of cheap junk. About the only thing that I know for sure is that it is VERY SHARP.

http://s816.photobucket.com/albums/zz81/whiteavanger/Katana Blade And Tsuba/

Any help at all would be appreciated.

I also forgot to mention that the blade is in very good physical condition, no nicksr signs of abuse at all, and no stain or rust anywhere on the blade.
 
My foreign writing skills are a bit rusty, but those look like Chinese characters to me. To be honest, it's hard to tell from pictures alone, and you'd probably want the opinion of a genuine katana maker to even identify if that hamon is real.
 
Sorry, but I also think it is a modern Chinese fake. The characters make no sense; the hamon (temperline) is etched; the nakago (tang) is badly formed.

Rich
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

"Never go anywhere without a knife"
- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
-------------------------------------------------------
 
The blade looks like damascus steel. A nihonto will have a pattern on the blade, but it will be much more subdued. The hamon is WAY more defined than it would be if it were real. A good polisher can really bring one out, but the line on your sword is thick and dark. It looks a lot more like the edge of the jacket steel on kobuse or san mai construction. And even then only if the jacket were wrought iron and etched with vinegar. There is also the fact that the "hamon" appears to follow the other patterns in the blade, which would not happen.
But don't worry too much that you got a fake. If it's a good sword then it's a good sword.
@ Noctis: Japanese kanji are the same as Chinese characters. My girlfriend makes out "big [something] field [something]"

- Chris
 
Hesparus said:
But don't worry too much that you got a fake. If it's a good sword then it's a good sword.
Click to expand...

I see this said a few times when discussing these fake swords.
Fake and good cannot be in the same sentence.
The steel is junk, probably varying grades of rebar with crud thrown in for contrast and the heat treat involves being exposed to the sun for ten minutes.

Proper production swords, with real steel and real heat treat, just about make it into the 'good' sword category...even then some don't.

Fake is fake and should be avoided like the plague.

@ Chris - Not meaning to preach at you, just that I think fakes are incredibly dangerous.
 
Rich S said:
Sorry, but I also think it is a modern Chinese fake. The characters make no sense; the hamon (temperline) is etched; the nakago (tang) is badly formed.

Rich
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

"Never go anywhere without a knife"
- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
-------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...

I agree. The habaki and edge just infront if it are dammaged. There no patina what so ever on the nakago. The hada is waaaay to open, and appears to be differing steel like damascus- who knows that was used.
looks like a poorly made copy.
 
@ Lee: I was careful about using the word "if". I agree that fakes are usually going to be crap, but I don't know that it's categorically true. There's no way of knowing from the pictures if it's any good so I didn't want to jump to conclusions that might be wrong (however unlikely).
 
Hi Chris,

I tend to think that for a sword to be good, it needs to be safe. I don't believe a person making a fake sword will care about that aspect and therefore, in my opinion, all fake swords are dangerous junk.
Maybe an artist creating a fake Mona Lisa might do a good job...I don't think the same can be said for a Chinese labourer knocking fake Gunto out by the ton.
Don't forget, their intention is to deceive the buyer. They are not making production swords based on Samurai themes, such as Paul Chen, Fred Chen, etc, but they are making "antiques" and war swords. It's deception and I don't believe they ever even intended to make a good sword.

Again, I'm not trying to disparage anyone with these words, just expressing concern that we're viewing fakes as something that can be salvaged in some instances.
It's the old saying...you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear... ;)
 
It would be nice if you would define "fake".

A plastic sword would be a fake sword.
I don't see "fake" in steel sword.

I also fail to see the connection between "originality" and "safety".

Thanks.
 
Fake - in these cases, it's a sword made to deceive the buyer into thinking they've bought an antique Japanese sword.

A plastic sword would be fake, yes.
A piece of steel shaped like a sword with modern made fittings made to look like an antique is also fake.
Just because a sword is steel does not mean it is genuine.
I could make an object that was made of steel and looked like a sword but you know there's more to a sword than that.
The heat treatment of the steel is the important part, and why I bring safety into it.
A trained, competent and responsible smith takes the time, effort and expense to heat treat the steel so that when it is used as a sword, it doesn't shatter into pieces or bend like a stick of liquorice. Hence it is safe.
A faker(hard to avoid using forger... ;) ) does none of this. If his sword is used as such, no one knows what will happen. Hence it is dangerous.

The fittings are another part of the 'safety' factor.
Genuine fittings were made to be used, fake fittings aren't. There are enough stories around of poor quality fittings within the production market to make me think that the fake market is not going to produce better.

Dr. Stein (above) has done a huge amount of work on the differences between fake blades and the genuine item.
It's time well spent reading his work and perusing the reputable sword dealers sites looking at genuine swords. The difference between the real deal and the fakes is night and day once your brain has registered the details.
 
Fake simply means that the item, whatever it is, is not what it claims to be. The Chinese are world leaders in faking everything from swords, handbags, cloths, drugs, computers, etc. etc. etc. This sword claims to be a Japanese sword; it is not, therefore it is a fake.

Rich
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

"Never go anywhere without a knife"
- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
-------------------------------------------------------
 
I'm not really heart broken if it's a fake. You generally get what you pay for, and $25 isn't a huge amount to invest, one way or the other. Actually, I'm just as happy that it's not some super valuable antique work of art, since my primary reason for buying it was to make a handle and scabbard for it myself out of some walnut that a friend gave me a few months ago. I had never intended it to be much more than a wall hanger, anyhow. It's good to know that I won't be defiling some treasure.
 
Lee Bray said:
.... blah blah blah ....

The difference between the real deal and the fakes is night and day once your brain has registered the details.
Click to expand...

Nice attitude you got there.

You could even fool someone that you are an expert of some kind.
Too bad you are nothing near.

So if someone outside Japan is making a katana, regardless of the quality,
he has to make it in the shape of the swords from his own country
in order to avoid being accused of forgery ??

So, in Turkey, will they make a jatagan and say it is a katana ?
Or they are not allowed to make anything similar to a katana ?

If they are selling katanas, of course they will make it look like japanese katanas.
And of course they will not try to make some new age katana,
although there are such cases too,
but they will try to make it as close to antique as they can.

Being a REPLICA says nothing about the quality
unless you examine the QUALITY of the sword,
without going into weather it is genuine or not.

I guess it is natural, for a well known (japanese) swordsmith like yourself
to have a thing against those filthy fakers, especially Chinese ones,
but my brain will never register those details.

Yes, I have seen your authentic work.
I can't open a single article on the Internet without your name coming up.

Cheers.
 
"nihonto" are only made in japan, period. Anyone can make a katana. A well made katana still isn't a nihonto.
 
Valar God said:
Nice attitude you got there.
Click to expand...

Thanks. You too.

"You could even fool someone that you are an expert of some kind.
Too bad you are nothing near."

Can't fool you, eh?

"So if someone outside Japan is making a katana, regardless of the quality,
he has to make it in the shape of the swords from his own country
in order to avoid being accused of forgery ??
So, in Turkey, will they make a jatagan and say it is a katana ?
Or they are not allowed to make anything similar to a katana ?"

You asked what constituted a fake. Since we're talking about a Japanese sword here, that's what I dealt with. This is not about what constitutes a real Nihonto.

"If they are selling katanas, of course they will make it look like japanese katanas.
And of course they will not try to make some new age katana,
although there are such cases too,
but they will try to make it as close to antique as they can."

Age makes real antiques.

"Being a REPLICA says nothing about the quality
unless you examine the QUALITY of the sword,
without going into weather it is genuine or not."

Can I have some of what you're on?

"I guess it is natural, for a well known (japanese) swordsmith like yourself
to have a thing against those filthy fakers, especially Chinese ones,
but my brain will never register those details."

No, not Japanese. But I do live in China, so I guess you're bang on the money with your jest about the Chinese.

"Yes, I have seen your authentic work.
I can't open a single article on the Internet without your name coming up."

It helps if you don't run the search with my name in it. If you wish, pm me your email and I'll send the saucy pics.

"Cheers"

Yes. Quite.
 
Ok, let's use the nooby way of talking.

Lee Bray said:
Can't fool you, eh?
Click to expand...

No, I am a fool for entering a discussion with a master of demagogy and deceipt.


Lee Bray said:
I see this said a few times when discussing these fake swords.
Fake and good cannot be in the same sentence.
Click to expand...

Lee Bray said:
You asked what constituted a fake.
Click to expand...

Did I really ?

Or was there a need that you define what you consider a fake
because there was too much nonsense in what you wrote ?

Google: replica


Lee Bray said:
Age makes real antiques.
Click to expand...

Yeah.
And wheat makes bread.
So what with it ?


Lee Bray said:
Blah blah blah blah .....
Click to expand...

Yes, blah.


Lee Bray said:
It helps if you don't run the search with my name in it. If you wish, pm me your email and I'll send the saucy pics.
Click to expand...

No need, just put the links pointing to your work so that everybody can see it.



And the main point:

Lee Bray said:
"Being a REPLICA says nothing about the quality
unless you examine the QUALITY of the sword,
without going into weather it is genuine or not."

Can I have some of what you're on?
Click to expand...

Valar God said:
I also fail to see the connection between "originality" and "safety".
Click to expand...

Of course, no answer.

I am not gonna ask you for some of what you have
because your reasons are in something you don't have.

Cheers.
 
Don't think I'll play at all anymore.

This discussion was about whether the OP's sword was genuine or fake. That's been answered.
If Valar God wants to think it's a replica or a genuine sword, that's down to him.
He obviously doesn't like the way I write or care for my opinion...so be it.
 
Lee...keep contributing to this s/f, it's appreciated.

Valar God, you are bringing NOTHING to the discussion. You wanna call someone out, you better have amazing CV yourself.

Who are you, what is your background, what is your knowledge/school/bonafides?

Answers better be solid, or the recommendation will be to go back to lurking.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I have thought that when Lee was done with insults
and had no answer to the things he said
that this discussion has ended, so why keep pushing it ?

And who are YOU, what is YOUR background, what is YOUR knowledge/school/bonafides?

I guess you think your answers is solid.

Lol.

Do you really have to have that in order to answer
what is the connection between "originality" and "safety" ?

No, Lee could had easily given the answer if he knew.

So, how can giving baseless statements be considered contributing ?

Oh, it wasn't meant to be for contributing,
it was meant for something else ....

I think it is better that we stop playing lawyers now, ok ?
 
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