My large survival knife experience- Opinions Welcome!

[tirod3]

you can baton with an axe, buddy.

Yes, axes are different. What they do is more work for less effort, faster, which means you aren't depleting your core reserve of calories, and have them to keep you warm. That is safer than expending more calories to do less work and edging closer to starvation in the long run.

Our ancestors used light hatchets to do the wood work in our pioneering days precisely because they were the proven tool of their ancestors, handed down as the better answer. We just enjoy the luxury of having larger pieces of blade steel these days because of mass production. That has fueled the use of the knife as a wood craft tool, and it's inclusion in the survival kit for downed pilots then created the fantasy you could live off the land with one. From there, batoning was the only possible method of cutting wood in a safe, effective manner.

In the heyday of the hawk and hatchet, the user would gather what dry, downed wood he could - not cut down wet trees that were unseasoned. This the why batoning is really out of place and a fantasy - it's a manufactured answer to a problem that does not exist, and related over and over to show the knife's "capabilities." The historical fact that nobody did it in the day is ignored.

There is just as much risk of injury with a large knife as hawk - here's one example just this week: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=728123

If you are going to attempt to use a knife for wood cutting, you need to be prepared, practiced, and experienced just as much as a hatchet. Don't kid yourself that using a tool that is less well designed for the job is safer. It goes to not only choosing the right tool for the job, but also doing the right job for the need - sure, we enjoy going out and chopping up small trees, but in mature woodlands, there is always deadwood to work with anyway. Don't choose to use the wrong stuff, pick the appropriate source for your firewood and properly protect the area around it so that you don't wake up on fire yourself.

Our tomahawk toting ancestors had quite a bit if handed down common sense when it came to living out of doors.

 

[Shotgun]

That's why our European ancestors imported a temperate zone tool they used in their forest land, and why the American native quickly adopted it. He had just as much opportunity to trade for saws and larger knives, but largely took on the metal headed tomahawk as the logical upgrade to the war clubs he had fashioned locally from root ball or stone.

Something to consider, as it is more more the quintessential tool of forest land in our past.

Sorry but I don't buy this. Back then steel was hard to make and came at a premium. It's my opinion that axes were used because you can use less of that steel in the tool. A palm sized piece of steel is much cheaper and easier to produce than even a thin machete. A machete takes quite a bit more steel to produce. Need is also different. They didn't have lightweight tents back then. After reading Nessmuk and Kephart I no longer see an axe as anything necessary. I don't cut 7 different trees down to build a camp. I just pull it out of my pack and boom, instant shelter. So a tool designed to chop is of little value to me.

To the OP; buy what you like best but one thing you should consider. If you're going to pack in an axe or large blade how are you going to carry it? If your answer is "in your pack" then why carry a large heavy peice of metal when you can just as easily carry an extra coat and a tarp? Or even an UL sleeping bag/quilt? Do you really want to spend several hours cutting up firewood or do you just want to throw up a tarp and climb into a sleeping bag? To me a survival knife is on your person at all times. That means any knife in my pack is NOT a survival knife. YMMV

 

[B.F.U]

Yes, axes are different. What they do is more work for less effort, faster, which means you aren't depleting your core reserve of calories, and have them to keep you warm. That is safer than expending more calories to do less work and edging closer to starvation in the long run.

Our ancestors used light hatchets to do the wood work in our pioneering days precisely because they were the proven tool of their ancestors, handed down as the better answer. We just enjoy the luxury of having larger pieces of blade steel these days because of mass production. That has fueled the use of the knife as a wood craft tool, and it's inclusion in the survival kit for downed pilots then created the fantasy you could live off the land with one. From there, batoning was the only possible method of cutting wood in a safe, effective manner.

In the heyday of the hawk and hatchet, the user would gather what dry, downed wood he could - not cut down wet trees that were unseasoned. This the why batoning is really out of place and a fantasy - it's a manufactured answer to a problem that does not exist, and related over and over to show the knife's "capabilities." The historical fact that nobody did it in the day is ignored.

There is just as much risk of injury with a large knife as hawk - here's one example just this week: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=728123

If you are going to attempt to use a knife for wood cutting, you need to be prepared, practiced, and experienced just as much as a hatchet. Don't kid yourself that using a tool that is less well designed for the job is safer. It goes to not only choosing the right tool for the job, but also doing the right job for the need - sure, we enjoy going out and chopping up small trees, but in mature woodlands, there is always deadwood to work with anyway. Don't choose to use the wrong stuff, pick the appropriate source for your firewood and properly protect the area around it so that you don't wake up on fire yourself.

Our tomahawk toting ancestors had quite a bit if handed down common sense when it came to living out of doors.

logic smackdown!

 

[creativeguy]

I have yet to see a forest that doesn't have all you can use just laying around.

True unless it's been pouring rain for weeks like it has been here lately. Or if you've got snow on the ground. In those cases I'd much rather be using my axe or hatchet to down some standing dead spruce or something like it that's ready to burn. Guess it all depends on where you're at and the time of year -- gear will fluctuate accordingly.

 

[A.P.F.]

True unless it's been pouring rain for weeks like it has been here lately. Or if you've got snow on the ground. In those cases I'd much rather be using my axe or hatchet to down some standing dead spruce or something like it that's ready to burn. Guess it all depends on where you're at and the time of year -- gear will fluctuate accordingly.

Very true. I only 'do' Summer/Fall.

 

[stabman]

I think all knife manufacturers that make anything other than the iconic Mora, be closed down. They have been defrauding the knife buying public for years.
Secondly, we should all be swayed by the apocryphal and anecdotal accounts of a few folks, and disregard any and all personal experience.

...........not.

Yep, seems that way.

Things I learned from this thread:
-Axes never break
-I never cut any wood when out in the woods, because my knives are totally inadequate compared to saws and axes. I must have been hallucinating from eating too many unidentified mushrooms. It was probably the fever keeping me warm, rather than the non-existent fire I obviously had not made seeing as I only had a knife with me.

 

[creativeguy]

I enjoy reading the varied opinions and sometimes learning or at least considering things to try for myself. I love my big knives but I've found that I can get a lot more wood processed with my Gransfors SFA. I'd sure hate to be skinning animals with the SFA though And actually I'd rather not use my big choppers for game either -- love my smaller and thinner 4 or 5 inch blades for that.

 

[ron finkbeiner jr]

Axe for chopping, Bob Dozier KS-7 wilderness knife for in camp duties. Hard to beat that combo if you ask me.

 

[jdk1]

Our ancestors used light hatchets to do the wood work in our pioneering days precisely because they were the proven tool of their ancestors, handed down as the better answer. We just enjoy the luxury of having larger pieces of blade steel these days because of mass production. That has fueled the use of the knife as a wood craft tool, and it's inclusion in the survival kit for downed pilots then created the fantasy you could live off the land with one. From there, batoning was the only possible method of cutting wood in a safe, effective manner.

Sorry but I don't buy this. Back then steel was hard to make and came at a premium. It's my opinion that axes were used because you can use less of that steel in the tool. A palm sized piece of steel is much cheaper and easier to produce than even a thin machete. A machete takes quite a bit more steel to produce. Need is also different...

Agreed Shotgun. I'll add to this idea. Could it also be that our steel is better than in these days of yore? We now have 1/8" blades which can be pounded through hard wood without damage. Was that available to the pilgrims, indians, or vikings? Maybe the large wedge (axe/hawk) was the ONLY option, not just the best option. Maybe quality has overcome the need for quantity (blade mass) in some cases. I can chop with a light machete very efficiently, and perform many other tasks an axe cannot, like clear a path of thorny vines or brush. I have little experience with axes, but understand a full-sized axe is a great tool for processing firewood. But, I also know I can do so many things with a large bladed knife, including chop and split, to make it a valid option. Again, we're not building cabins or feeding a wood burning stove all winter, we're talking about short term survival or woods bumming.

There are always better tools for specialized needs. But, if you follow that logic to the letter, you better get rid of that gasoline truck. Deisel engines are wayyyy better for any real truck jobs And station wagons/minivans would be the only cars on the road.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Yes, axes are different. What they do is more work for less effort, faster, which means you aren't depleting your core reserve of calories, and have them to keep you warm. That is safer than expending more calories to do less work and edging closer to starvation in the long run.

A good point and a good argument for the saw and for batonning over chopping with a knife.

Our ancestors used light hatchets to do the wood work in our pioneering days precisely because they were the proven tool of their ancestors, handed down as the better answer. We just enjoy the luxury of having larger pieces of blade steel these days because of mass production. That has fueled the use of the knife as a wood craft tool, and it's inclusion in the survival kit for downed pilots then created the fantasy you could live off the land with one. From there, batoning was the only possible method of cutting wood in a safe, effective manner.

In the heyday of the hawk and hatchet, the user would gather what dry, downed wood he could - not cut down wet trees that were unseasoned. This the why batoning is really out of place and a fantasy - it's a manufactured answer to a problem that does not exist, and related over and over to show the knife's "capabilities." The historical fact that nobody did it in the day is ignored.

Our ancestors batonned all the shingles that roofed America for the first couple of centuries.

The problem of getting at the dry interior of a piece of wood with a knife does not exist if you have a better tool. What if you do not? Do you perish for lack of tool correctness?

I thought that, Historically, hand axes are relatively underrepresented in lists of estate property as compared to the ubiquitous felling axe, or even the broad axe.

There is just as much risk of injury with a large knife as hawk - here's one example just this week: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=728123

Statistics? Probably none. In principle, striking the back of a blade with a piece of wood should be safer than striking a piece of wood with an axe. Chopping would be an entirely different thing - with knife or axe. But if you only have a knife . . . . .

If you are going to attempt to use a knife for wood cutting, you need to be prepared, practiced, and experienced just as much as a hatchet.

Amen. That suggests practice: doing something you do not strictly need to do so you can do it more safely if you have to do it.

Don't kid yourself that using a tool that is less well designed for the job is safer.

And does it seem to you that a hawk is designed for splitting, as opposed to cutting?

It goes to not only choosing the right tool for the job, but also doing the right job for the need - sure, we enjoy going out and chopping up small trees, but in mature woodlands, there is always deadwood to work with anyway. Don't choose to use the wrong stuff, pick the appropriate source for your firewood and properly protect the area around it so that you don't wake up on fire yourself.

Our tomahawk toting ancestors had quite a bit if handed down common sense when it came to living out of doors.

If you have all the stuff you need, you are probably not in a survival situation. Survival typically requires adapting and improvising. If you have no knowledge or skill in splitting wood with a knife or saw, it will be harder to perform those tasks if needed.

 

[BuckeyeGuy]

For the last year or so I have been trying out different systems to see what works best for me. I have tried a couple of large knives, and I will agree 100% that the BK9 is the way to go if you choose this route. I have one and really enjoy using it, but where I live an axe or large chopper isn't really needed. I use a Bahco Laplander folding saw for heavy processing and couldn't be happier with it. I haven't found a pack axe that compares to it; and as others have said it is safer and more efficient. If I were in Canada, I would probably carry a Sven 21" saw and a BK9. Of course every gear list should always end with...."and a mora"

 

[bigcountry1315]

I live in a very remote area where in winter we get very heavy and deep snow. I always carry a big knife either my Gossman BBT or one of my Siegle's or other customs. In my pack that is always with me hunting I carry a Fiskars hatchet and a Bahco folding saw. I also always have my Leatherman on me. Now anytime I go in the woods from hiking to bowhunting I also carry one of my big boar revolvers. Some may say it is over kill but I would rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it. I carry a handgun for two and four legged predators. I have had run ins with a few bears and had a wolf follow me a half mile. Never close enough to justify killing it but enough to have the hairs on the back of your neck standing.

 

[Dirtknap]

ASharp,

Get a 12 inch Ontario machete and make the mods Colhane makes on youtube - smooth and flush handle, square spine close to handle for firesteel, round front of spine for drawknife, convex most of blade for chopping, scandi grind blade near handle for carving.

With these mods, a $30 machete is a very functional 1095 beast. I have mine paired with a Mora 546 and there's little I cant accomplish. All for 40 bucks. I'm kicking myself for some of the purchases i've made before this realization.

Good luck in your search.

 

[ASharpCanadian]

For the last year or so I have been trying out different systems to see what works best for me. I have tried a couple of large knives, and I will agree 100% that the BK9 is the way to go if you choose this route. I have one and really enjoy using it, but where I live an axe or large chopper isn't really needed. I use a Bahco Laplander folding saw for heavy processing and couldn't be happier with it. I haven't found a pack axe that compares to it; and as others have said it is safer and more efficient. If I were in Canada, I would probably carry a Sven 21" saw and a BK9. Of course every gear list should always end with...."and a mora"

I can get behind this. Small axe/Large knife + Mora FTW. I need to try a saw as well.

Why I started this thread- 4" knives suck for me. I guess if I was hiking I could bear grylls some stuff and get a fire going/build shelter but Id much rather have a rodent 9/junglas than a 4" esee or ratmandu, carrying that much 1/4" steel and weight seems a waste when it's a hard use tool for being abused- thus a larger blade would be better. Goes without saying I have a Mora, because everyone should have a Mora. Always.


@Tirod- Good post man. I will say

1- good point about the evolution of the tools. As for why alot of people use big knives I would disagree with your assertion that it is because "pilots used them", or (you didnt say this but I have heard others) "marketing has fooled weekend warriors into buying stuff they dont need" or "people are lazy and dont want to carry an axe". Unlike our ancestors we have a new tool- just like our ancestors alot of people are trying them and finding that IT WORKS. Thus- proliferation.

2- If its wet batonning rocks I dont know what you mean about finding dry wood. Not always so lucky around here so you get what you can and I like a bigger blade for surgically batonning and finding the good stuff to get things started especially. Also like 'em for structure building as they make quick work of the smaller trees/limbs and branches that make fantastic shelter material.

3- Theres nowhere near the risk of injury with a large knife as with a hawk or axe. You will always find examples but axes are the most dangerous woods tool dont fool yourself- statistically supported and anecdotally as well in my experience from what I have seen. (I am a paranoid and careful axe user and follow the rules to a tee) Its the weight at the end thats the issue- knives are less "swingy". Bad things can still happen but not even close.


Me, I love my gransfors bruks. Also stoked to try more bigger blades. Im gonna continue to figure out what works when/for what and disregard others' commitment to a certain piece of metal. Its like theres people arguing for an either or political party hahah.

Honestly when I joined this forum I was looking for the opinions of others who had spent or spend more time outside than I do. I was staggered when I encountered the myopia/stubborness and even bitterness sorrounding the knife vs axe thing. Honestly it's amazing and Im trying hard not to get infected.

I honestly couldn't believe the frustration that some people have with others' choices...theres alot of angry people in the woods it seems I'd be afraid to run into some of these folks in the woods on a day when I might have a large blade

Oh yeah, and to the folks that try to say "knives are for slicing, not batonning or chopping- axes are for chopping"- they didnt have swamp rat/busse/rtak 2 when you were a kid

 

[lemonslush]

ASharp,

Get a 12 inch Ontario machete and make the mods Colhane makes on youtube - smooth and flush handle, square spine close to handle for firesteel, round front of spine for drawknife, convex most of blade for chopping, scandi grind blade near handle for carving.

With these mods, a $30 machete is a very functional 1095 beast. I have mine paired with a Mora 546 and there's little I cant accomplish. All for 40 bucks. I'm kicking myself for some of the purchases i've made before this realization.

Good luck in your search.

I 100% agree with you. You can do everything you can with a large knife and more with a machete. In some cases with less weight.

 

[panzertroop]

Since we're bringing the whole shed, why not a good Stihl with a 24 in. bar and a coulpe spare chains?

Processing firewood for a 2-3 trip is easy when taking a small axe and pack saw. Right tool for the job. I never fell a dead standing oak with a large knife. But I have with an axe and kept my camp warm on a winter night. Don't discount people'a tool choices because you don't understand them.

 

[idaho]

I like big knives. Big bowies are my favourite.
Rtaks, Swamps, bk9 - they are all nice, but a bit TOO chopping oriented.
They are not nimble, precise enough.

Over the years I found that knife can and should be thinner, and should have a tip.
If I would choose single wood knife - it would be something like BKT5.
Or some slim 7 to 8 inches bowie.
Better with food, lighter on the belt.

 

[stabman]

I like big knives.

And that's all the reason anyone needs.
End thread.

 

[not2sharp]

The best knives to have for survival are a longish and heavy fixed-bladed camp knife and a one of the larger SAKs, like the Swiss Champ. The camp knife should induce enough drag and weight to slow you down, while the many gagets on the SAK can give you something to play with for hours. Either way you will remain relatively in place long enough to either allow the rescue team to find you or at least long enough to get the adrenaline out of your system so that your brain can begin to function properly.

n2s

 

[ASharpCanadian]

I 100% agree with you. You can do everything you can with a large knife and more with a machete. In some cases with less weight.

machetes in the Canadian North. Im thinking theres a reason you dont see that too often....