My new kitchen knife - forged Japanese

ddean said:
A previous thread got me interested
& I ordered one last week from
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=05.100.16&dept_id=12113
"Blade 6" Grip 4" ....... a layer of blue steel between two pieces of soft wrought iron......tempered to Rockwell c63. .....forging marks are left intact ...... handles are made from Ho (a relative of the Magnolia), known for its longevity when exposed to water."

As a point of interest, although the Japan Woodworker indicates that they are located in Alamenda, CA. , years ago they had a store in nearby Berkeley, CA. I was into carving wood sculptures in those days, mostly with chisels. Every couple of months I would drive over there and drool all over the gorgeous woodworking tools in their shop. Man, I could have spent thousands in that place.....and remember....that was in the early 80's. :p
 
ichor said:
Santoku. Now....what about that chisel edge. Am I gonna have to learn to sharpen all over again?
My Santuko above has a regular two-sided bevel.
 
the santoku I make has a flat grind with a small final bevel....convex, of course. ;)
 
ddean that santuko is one of the ones that I use in my kitchen. I reach for it more than any other knife when it comes to use on veggies. Well worth the $$. word of warning lemons and onions will rust this blade in 5 seconds or less.
Sometimes I'll use a western style chef knife...Hi carbon steel.
I use an Uncle Henry "steelhead" fillet knife for portioning Halibut and filleting salmon. Sometimes I'll use a sushi knife like otaru posted. I have two sizes... the shorter one gets the job done most of the time. It is also used on trimming/portioning filet mignon and trimming fat on New Yorks and Spencers.
Prime rib gets the Forchner slicer (serrated).
A henckles paring knife is used for butterflying prawns and for taking the membrane off of lobsters.
I also have a japanes style knife that is used exclusivly for deboning chickens. When I'm really moving I can do a chicken in under two minutes. I got it at japan wood worker but I don't see it on their site now.
 
I just re-discovered a great site. japanese-knife.com It has great knives...some really expensive 2,300.00 but some are reasonable. What's cool it looks like they have a tutorial on how to sharpen japanes style knives on water stones. Even has a video!

I found the style knife I use on chickens...a honesuki.
 
Interesting site......sharpening tips and videos from Japanese-Knife.com


http://www.japanese-knife.com/sharpen/


Click on the photo for videos. And click on SHOP.....they have an impressive selection of Japanese knives by different Japanese makers.....plus water stones, Sharpening DVD, etc.
 
I've looked into getting some Japanese kitchen knives for quite a while--along the way I've learned a few things.

I've also seen the cutting board results that Josh mentioned. I seems that everybody just assumed that plastic was "safer", but no one ever bothered to count what actually could grow on the boards--less grew on a wooden board.

The traditional handles are force-fit onto the tang. They are, with dificulty unless loosened with wear, replacable. That was done on purpose, a well-made blade will out-last the handle. Such handles are put on several-thousand dollar knives. And the particular type of wood used is very durable and water resistant, though is is a little soft compared to many hardwoods. On the one such inexpensive knife I have, I sanded the handle, and oiled it, sort of as an experiment, also because I didn't like the way it was darkening with use. There are some subtle highlights and it is quite attractive. If the handle is properly fitted and the knife maintained, I don't think sanitation is a problem--who is more picky than the Japanese about sanitation, especially when paying big $$ for raw fish? They've been using just this wood for just this purpose for a long time.

Super-expensive traditional knives may be made from a single piece of very hard carbon steel. They are hard to make, hard to sharpen, and ususally have the traditional single bevel/grind. Unless you're a master sushi chef with a couple thousand to blow and a complete set of high quality water stones, you probably won't be using one. I imagine that they are somewhhat fragile as well.

Two-layer laminated blades with one side soft (best is apparently old, genuine wrought iron) and one side very hard are single bevel/grind. They are easier to sharpen and come in many levels of quality depending upon materials and the degree of hand-work, and of course who did the handwork.

Three layer (sandwich) lamination with two soft layers enclosing a inner hard layer will, by necessity be ground on both sides--how else to expose the inner layer to take the edge? There may or may not be a secondary bevel, which could be symmetrical or applied only to one side. With honing that small secondary bevel could be centered or even moved to the other side, though the difference would likely be miniscule. These come in a variety of quality and price, and this is where one sees layered steel or damascus used for the outer layers. Carbon outer, carbon inner, SS outer, carbon inner, and SS outer, SS inner all are on the market.

So are SS alloy non-laminated blades produced from modern "high-tech" steels.

Western shapes and traditional Japanese shapes are available, and western style full-tang handles with riveted slabs are available.

Of course, there is a japanese term for every permutation.

"Hard" can mean anything from Rockwell 59 up to Rockwell 64 (!). A decent set of waterstones is likely needed to get the best out of the latter. A "quick touch up" on a ginder or belt sander would probably cause significant damage or chipping.

The bewildering variety of shapes and names can be confusing--make sure that the knife matches the intended use. Some names reflect construction, or material, some intended use, and some region of origin since different areas have produced slighty different shapes for the same job. And some are very specialized--on a now apparently defunct website I saw a regional knife that was specifially intended for processing eels, from push-cutting off the head to slicing. (I suspect that knives of this type may be the "inspiration" for some of the otherwise seemingly useless shapes of "tactical" blades) There is also an enormous sword-like knife for the initial processing of 1,000 lb tuna.

Chopping on a chicken bone will ruin a thin delicate veggie slicer or a knife intended to slice raw fish meat. As would steeling like the kid in the deli does. The toughest Japanese kitchen task I know of is cutting trough the backbones of large fish, or boning (not chopping!) fowl. The knife called a deba or deba-hocho is stong and very thick and is used for the large fish.

Great store is put into slicing or push-cutting the food so as to cause the least amount of tearing, mashing or release of juices, as this is thought to adversly alter the tast of the food. I'm no expert, but I am not aware of chopping as we think of it in the West being used for any traditional Japanese cooking. I'm likely wrong, there probably is some exception, but the idea of wacking a couple of onions on a board with a heavy 14" knife just doesn't occur to them, as can be seen from the lack of such tools in the traditional kitchen implements.

This site has a nice collection of imported Japanese knives most of which are accessably priced factory-made knives that are, I think well-chosen for Western kitchen use. Bevel-type is double, unless otherwise noted. I have visited the store, and the owner chatted with me an my brother for over an hour as we looked at the kitchen knives, though we didn't intend to purchase any that day. It was very informative, and I think that he would be happy to help anyone select a suitable knife by e-mail, and would tell you what didn't fit what you wanted to do. He also had a small catalog that covered the kitchen knives that provides more information than is on the website--I bet he would mail out one. The other knives on his site, all customs, are fun to drool over as well, and the ones that we saw in person were amazing.

http://www.bladegallery.com/knives/type.asp?code=qkitchen&display=Knives+for+Chefs

FWIW, the ones there by Kobayashi to me and my brother to be a good selection--

knife1952.jpg


reasonable, price, ferrule is forge welded to tang (OK, no "handle-problem"), familiar Western shape, very light and thin with good feel and taper. and though SS, the center is Swedish tool steel at Rc 62. The handle is a bit clunky, as the owner immediately pointed out, but it felt better than the similarly or less espensive knives without ferrules. He offered to grind down the handle to a better shape and buff it for an additional $20, as I recall, and said that he often does this.


Whew, that was long, and I'm too lazy to correct the typos.
 
I've ordered a Messermeister Santuko from Chefdepot.

Firkin, I don't think because the Japanese use wood handles on knives we wouldn't be better off without the germs that live on them. The handles are a weakness in the germ vector highway. Safe and proper handling controls this to a large extent. This does not mean improvement is impossible or undesirable. Removable and washable handles would be a good thing.

There is a Santuko with 16 layers of metal. It and all the variations are over a hundred bucks. I'm having trouble remembering the name of the manufacturer- but Kershaw bought them. Shun?

I'd like to ask you where the fat part of the buying curve is. The Santuko on its way to me is forged high carbon german steel. Call it around 80 bucks. There's a place for any product where a price gets you 97% of what that product can do best; afterwards you pay exponentially for increments of improvement.

firkin, how is it you know so much without working for the CIA?


munk
 
firkin, how is it you know so much without working for the CIA?


munk



er...uh... munk?


ixnay on the estionsquay about IACAY.


:rolleyes:
Kis
 
Munk,

"firkin, how is it you know so much without working for the CIA? "

Considering some recent revelations about the CIA, I don't quite know how to interpret that--oops I've already said too much!!!

RE "sweet spot" depends on what is important to you--
"damascus",bolsters, fine finish add to cost.

The knife I posted the pic of has a 8 3/4" blade and the price is a tad over $80 bucks. I like the fact that the handle is wood and can be easily reshaped to fit me if needed. It is very light and thin and the steel is harder than would be found in a German knife (Rc 56-58), which will also be almost certainly be thicker and heavier, even though a Santoku shape.

I'm sure a Shun would feel different to you, it's up to you to decide if it is better.

A lot of this guys stuff is in the same price range, and is made with carbon steel.

http://watanabeblade.com/english/pro/kaibou.htm

I suspect that one of his santokus would also have a quite different feel, quite possibly take a finer edge than the stainless knife I pictured.

If I had the cash right now, I'd get one or both of the above, as I have pretty much stopped chopping most things and prefer slicing with a very sharp, thin, light knife.

But I have a set of Henckels already, though not the santoku. For things like cutting into hard winter squash, they are better choice than the light thin knives.

Hard or soft (within certain limits) is bad or good, depending upon how you are going to use and sharpen the knife. Same for thin and less thin. Depends on chopping vs slicing. The light thin little veggie slicer I have will deeply penetrate the wooden cutting board if you chop with it, or push hard--not intended use and it shows. It is easy to chip, but within intended use, that is not a problem.

I would never buy Henckels again, or any other knife with a fat bolster that extends all the way to the edge--They are a PITA when sharpening, and unless ground down, a hook will form in front of it as the knife ages, destroying the rocker. This is happened to my Henckels and it appears that due to their differential sintered construction the steel is actually softer in that very spot, which aggravates the problem. The same has happened to my brother's and he is going to take some the shop previously mentioned, which is near him as the proprietor will reprofile them, and remove part of the troublesome bolster, at the reasonable, though not inconsierable price of a couple of dollars/inch. I've gone at mine with a new file, and put considerable wear on some cheap coarse stones. Not real pretty, but it worked.

The Messermeisters, unlike many of their cousins thankfully don't suffer from this problem, and I think you made a good choice, given your own handle preferences, and the care and sharpening will be what you are used to.

Everything is a compromise. Higher performance has a cost, even if the initial outlay is the same.

I think with careful shopping one can find what few attributes one considers most important for less than $100 bucks, often considerably less, as long as one doesn't want the largest size. If one wants, bolsters, no corrosion, hardest steel,best balance, damascus, perfect finish, and what ever else in the same knife, then be ready to spend more, and get something that is likely still a compromise of some sort.
 
firkin said:
Munk,

"firkin, how is it you know so much without working for the CIA? "

Considering some recent revelations about the CIA, I don't quite know how to interpret that--oops I've already said too much!!!

......

We ARE talking about the Culinary Institute of American.....right? :p
 
Germs make you tougher if they don't kill ya first...
 
Cthulhu Interdimensonal Amaligimated.

Doh!, now I've done it...could be a rough night.

I really hate it when I do that.

CHA0087.gif

"Why vote for a lesser evil?"
 
firkin's last post demonstrates an old chestnut in our culture- that those over 30 who are unmarried are terminally wierd.

uh....I wasn't married until I was 35.....




munk
 
Hey, My Messermeister Santuko from ChefDepot is great! It came in a little felt and cardboard case, and has a lifetime guarentee. Firkin, it looks so elegant I almost hate to think about using it. Naaawwww. This thing was born to attack food products and make them suitable/edible.

I must say after the cleaver switch-around, and the hassle of it all, Chef2 at Chefdepot has been generous and kind. I'm glad Yvsa gave me the link. I would recomend that Org to anyone looking for a knife or kitchen product. While I was there, I compared prices to the KnifeCenteroftheInternet, and Chefdepot was more than competitive, (Having many lower and a few slightly higher priced)

munk
 
Everyone's terminal...I can think of worse ways to go.

But terminally wealthy or terminally happy do seem attractive, just haven't figured out the innoculation procedure. Maybe those are partly genetic.

Make do with what ya got, I guess.
 
What can I say firkin, except if I had a Sister I'd think she was lucky to go out with you. I know at least she'd be fed well, listen to good music, have witty conversation, and learn a few things of no practical use that will remain in memory forever.



munk
 
fyi, here's what I said to someone who Emailed some questions re this post

> Hey Dean,
>
> - Double beveled, in your opinion are
> they are sharp as a Single Bevel knife of similiar
> design?
>
no experience with single,
but sharp I think is not what you're after.
A 90-degree edge can be just as -sharp- as a 10-degree edge.
And sharp, high-angle edges are used in many industries.

What single bevel gives is;
lower angle edge,
with no off-set
(slice point is on the edge, not the middle of the blade).

For precise shaving-off type action,
single-bevel sometimes has the advantage.
Depends on how precise you want to be.
Woodworker blades are often single edged,
japanese or not, for just this reason.

The concavity of a blade body makes up for no off-set,
breaks the 'suction'/friction/whatever
between the material & the smooth blade surface.

> - Also, is the backside of your blade polished and
> Concave, or is it just flat and black (with the
> hammer marks) on both sides?
>
Same both sides, no polish
 
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