My new stabilizing setup.

Phillip Patton

Phillip Patton

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
5,380
I already had the vacuum pump and bell jar, just had to get the appropriate hoses and fittings.
Now I'm waiting for the Nelsonite to get here from Darren Ellis.

stabilizer0003.JPG


stabilizer0004.JPG


Here's two shots showing it boiling water : :D

stabilizer0005.JPG


stabilizer0002.JPG
 
what is nelsonite? I am looking into getting a vac pump. how many inches of mercury (if I said that right) do you need.
 
FWIW, that's called a "dessicator". Bell jar is something else.

Do you have a "T" somewhere in that line/valve so you can vent it to atmosphere to release vacuum? Might want to have that.

How much Nelsonite are you intending to have in there at once?
 
fitzo said:
FWIW, that's called a "dessicator". Bell jar is something else.

Do you have a "T" somewhere in that line/valve so you can vent it to atmosphere to release vacuum? Might want to have that.

How much Nelsonite are you intending to have in there at once?
Click to expand...

Picky picky picky. :D
The ball valve has a pressure release valve on it. :)
I have no idea how much Nelsonite to use. Enough to cover the blocks of wood I suppose, but if it foams a lot, I'll need to be careful. Any tips would be welcome...
 
joe9knives said:
what is nelsonite? I am looking into getting a vac pump. how many inches of mercury (if I said that right) do you need.
Click to expand...

Nelsonite is a product used to treat furniture and pool cues and other things to help stabilize them.
I don't know how much vacuum you need. I'm new at this myself. :)
 
Phillip Patton said:
Picky picky picky. :D
The ball valve has a pressure release valve on it. :)
I have no idea how much Nelsonite to use. Enough to cover the blocks of wood I suppose, but if it foams a lot, I'll need to be careful. Any tips would be welcome...
Click to expand...

Make sure the valve vents to the pump side. My point being, if you turn the pump off under vaccuum, it needs to be vented. Otherwise, it'll suck oil up to the valve or back into the vessel. If it doesn't do that, put a T in with another valve or you'll have a mess sooner or later.

When you start the stabilizing run, you face two sources of bubbling. One is the obvious, sucking the air out of the wood. The second is that the solvent (toluene or xylene in Nelsonite, I believe) will boil just like the water until it chills itself. It's called latent heat, IIRC. You can mimimize this foaming by starting with chilled Nelsonite. that works out well, because you should keep unused nelsonite in a fridge to extend shelf life.

From the foto, that dessicator looks like it's in fine shape. No chipping. Does the top valve work? Ideally, the valve and mating surfaces are intended to be used dry, but that seldom works well in the real world with a solvent inside. You can use a silicone based valve grease to lube it VERY lightly. A pencil eraser sized dab will do the whole thing.

I admire those old Sargeant-Welch pumps. They are abused terribly and run for many years; they deserve a space in the pantheon of prime lab equipment. That one has seen much use. When you get it under vacuum, check to make sure the pump oil comes up between the lines while it's running. If the oil levelk climbs above the lines, it means you have dissolved solvent in the oil, which is expected without a cold trap. Time to change the oil then. Use vaccuum pump oil. It's worth the maintenance. Those old guys will run forever if they're well maintained.

Put your blocks in a pan/jar/etc and cover with nelsonite. Place this inside the dessicator. That way, foaming will fall to the bottom instead of climbing right up and going into the hoses. Old lab trick for when you don;t have a trap inline.

When you fire up the vac with the nelsonite in there, have the bleed partially open and slowly close it. You can use it to control the rate of foaming and boiling.

One last thing...you'll probably get a good dose of solvent in the air from running that pump. A hose on the vent end run outside is a good thing for the liver.

Hope that helps.:)
 
Abrasive said:
Holy cow, what a boatload of great advice! Thanks, Fitzo!

Dave
Click to expand...

Yeah, it almost sounds like he knows what he's talking about, eh? :D

Thanks Mike, great advice. Looks like I'll have to turn the valve around...
 
That setup sucks! :D

(If I have to say this twice then a vacumn creating device may be too dangerous for you to take on)

Seriously that is a pretty cool setup. :thumbup:
 
Nice rig there Phillip :thumbup: The pump looks heavy duty. Keep us posted on what type of results you end up getting with the set-up & the nelsonite. If you've sent anything out to get stabilized it would be interesting to hear a comparison between the two.

fitzo said:
From the foto, that desiccator looks like it's in fine shape. No chipping. Does the top valve work?
Click to expand...

Is a desiccator "old school" type lab equipment ? As in not being made anymore ? Excellent stabilizing info fitzo ! Just one more of many "Hot Tips" I've saved courtesy of your posts over the years ;) Danke :thumbup:
 
David Wesner said:
Is a desiccator "old school" type lab equipment ? As in not being made anymore ? Excellent stabilizing info fitzo ! Just one more of many "Hot Tips" I've saved courtesy of your posts over the years ;) Danke :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Phillip, David, you're most welcome. It's my pleasure to help where possible.

A "dessicator" is really a device for storing chemicals in a very dry environment. Beneath that ceramic plate one usually puts a drying agent, one example of which is silica gel. You put your dessicant in the bottom, the chemicals in closed bottles on top, and slide the lid on. Suck a vaccuum on it, turn the little glass valve on top closed and it'll stay bone dry. Every lab I ever worked in had one and I used it all the time. They're still available in glass and nowadays even, plastic. The good glass ones are quite expensive because the flat surfaces are hand lapped.

It's cool to have the heavy glass for a stabilizer so you get to see whazzup as you apply the vaccuum! :D Yeah, I'm a geek about that stuff. :)
 
I would also put a "trash tank" for lack of a better term between the vacuum chamber and the pump to keep any stabilizing agents out of the pump (if the foam gets to the vacuum hose it will go in the pump and you will have problems) You could make one easily out of a section of 1" steel pipe with end caps on both ends, just drill 2 holes, tap, and put some brass hose fittings on and presto, instant pump protection!
 
that set up is just about like mine,
my pump is a diaphragm type so I don't worry about oil
I'm glad Mike mentioned that , it would have gone right over my head with out mention.

when you cause a negative pressure in your wood you make your wood block into a little suction sponge , run it until you can't see anymore air coming from the block. of course it's setting in the medium . once all the air is out. just release the vacuum making sure the block stays submerged.
the viscosity of the medium will now determine how far it will get sucked up and how deep .. depends on what you are using for medium, the heat of it and how porous your block is , some guys use pressure as part of the process also right after the vacuum..

I hope this helps some..
 
Another tip.
Run the setup dry, with just the wood in it.
Give it a while to get the water out of the wood.
Return to atmospheric (let off the vacuum).
Add the stabilizer and pump it back down.
No sense in sucking all the volatile solvents out waiting for the wood to dry...
 
Well, I got my Nelsonite Saturday, and I've been playing with it some.
Now, I have some more questions. :)

1. How do I tell if it's penetrated all the way into the wood?

2. Will Nelsonite fill the pores at all? I like to buff my wood handles, but woods like osage orange tend to collect the buffing compound in the pores and it looks terrible.

3. If I want to use this with light colored woods like maple or box elder,
how can I stain the wood AND stabilize it? Is there a dye that can be mixed with the Nelsonite?

Thanks,

Phillip
 
Phillip Patton said:
Well, I got my Nelsonite Saturday, and I've been playing with it some.
Now, I have some more questions. :)

1. How do I tell if it's penetrated all the way into the wood?
Click to expand...

Well, the obvious answer is cut it in half and look! :D

The longer answer is you will have to do some guessing. It will depend on the wood, moisture content, temp, pressure (vac). Pine it will go through in hours. Oily wood like mesquite it won't even penetrate but a short distance in days. Get some cheap lumber-yard woods like pine, oak, walnut or cherry, scrap osage, etc that is cut into handle-sized pieces. Make 2 each. Run one set 8 hours, then slice down the middle length with your bandsaw and look at the inside. Do another set for 24-48 hours and see if there's a difference. Adjust time as necessary. If you are interested in osage, make blocks that you can render into scales when you cut. That way you can still use it there's no useless wood.

The other way, and how I did experiments, was to put them in for awhile, then remove and weigh. Back in, weigh, etc until the weight stabilzied. Then I cut them in half.

Sorry I can't tell you better than that, Phillip.

Phillip Patton said:
2. Will Nelsonite fill the pores at all? I like to buff my wood handles, but woods like osage orange tend to collect the buffing compound in the pores and it looks terrible.
Click to expand...

It's a solid dissolved in a volatile liquid. Let's just say 35% "solids" by volume. Fill the hole with liquid, evaporate off the volatiles. The hole is partially filled, 35%, with a sealer, and the wood is coated.

Phillip Patton said:
3. If I want to use this with light colored woods like maple or box elder,
how can I stain the wood AND stabilize it? Is there a dye that can be mixed with the Nelsonite?

Thanks,

Phillip
Click to expand...

You'll be able to add the dye to the Nelsonite. Poke through the dye section of a place like WoodworkersSupply.com and look at oil-based dyes. Aniline dyes will probably work, too; bear in mind they're toxic. I have heard of people using RIT fabric dye, but I forget the circumstances.
Someone else will have better response than this.
 
fitzo said:
Well, the obvious answer is cut it in half and look! :D

The longer answer is you will have to do some guessing. It will depend on the wood, moisture content, temp, pressure (vac). Pine it will go through in hours. Oily wood like mesquite it won't even penetrate but a short distance in days. Get some cheap lumber-yard woods like pine, oak, walnut or cherry, scrap osage, etc that is cut into handle-sized pieces. Make 2 each. Run one set 8 hours, then slice down the middle length with your bandsaw and look at the inside. Do another set for 24-48 hours and see if there's a difference. Adjust time as necessary. If you are interested in osage, make blocks that you can render into scales when you cut. That way you can still use it there's no useless wood.

The other way, and how I did experiments, was to put them in for awhile, then remove and weigh. Back in, weigh, etc until the weight stabilzied. Then I cut them in half.

Sorry I can't tell you better than that, Phillip.
Click to expand...


When you talk about time, do you mean time spent under vacuum, or soaking in it?
I tried cutting some in half, but it didn't look any different on the inside, that's why I asked. :)


You'll be able to add the dye to the Nelsonite. Poke through the dye section of a place like WoodworkersSupply.com and look at oil-based dyes. Aniline dyes will probably work, too; bear in mind they're toxic. I have heard of people using RIT fabric dye, but I forget the circumstances.
Someone else will have better response than this.
Click to expand...


How about oil-based leather dye? I really like how the light brown looks on curly box elder.

Thanks, Mike, you're the best. :thumbup::)
 
Phillip, YW. I hope i'm giving good advice, is all. I think you should run this through with a piece of pine first, because the results are obvious. Soak a piece for maybe 20 minutes, drain, and cut to see the results, then do another piece 8-12 hours and look again. You'll see best what you're looking for.

Does that set up hold vacuum when you close the valve and turn the pump off? It will slowly lose vac as the solvent evap's, but you won't have to run the pump constantly, just periodically. I'd refresh thew vac periodically, but mostly it needs to soak once the air is pulled out of the wood. I have a vac/pressure guage on my setup so I can keep a watch on it that way. Those old Welch pumps can run for days on end continuously, but there's no sense wasting the electricity if not necessary. In my case, I have a pressure can for spray paint that I alternately ran vac and pressure, so my experiences are all colored by that.

I think I used the wrong term saying an "oil-based" dye. I meant a dye powder soluble in a solvent like alcohol or xylene rather than water-soluble. I would be hesitant about a dye already in oil for fear it wouldn't dry properly and leave you with a mess. On the other hand, I think the "other" Fiebings dyes are alcohol based, and as such should work fine.

What you need is someone besides me,like IG or Bruce Evans, to speak up because they dye wood, bone, etc. I defiinitely recommend jsut picking up a box of RIT fabric dye at the store next time and trying that. it's meant to dye cotton fiber, so it should work well on wood. It's all a matter of solubility.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top