My sharpening woes... Please give me advice!

PittViper

PittViper

Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
22
Hi, I have bee hell bend on getting my knives shaving sharp for years.

These are the sharpeners I have:
1. Spyderco Sharpmaker
2. Lansky deluxe (5 stones w/saphire)
3. Meyerco Sharpen-it
4. Edgepro apex delux kit.

Most recent addition is the lansky. I was under the impression I could get hair shaving sharpness with this. I have failed miserably.

Before that, I tried the Sharpen-it. Nice little tool but no shaving sharpness.

Before that, the edgepro apex. I have never achieved consistent results with this system, and I was hoping I would sincee I paid so much.

First used: sharpmaker. Again, no average consistency. Never got a blade to shave hair using this

My test knife is a Kershaw Blackout. I want to get it shaving sharp, and I know it could take it, because it was that sharp when it came from the factory.

So, please give me some advice on how to best use these sharpeners, either singlely to get the edge I want, or some combination.

Thanks,

Viper
 
I am surprised to hear that you have not been able to get shaving sharp with some of those especially the Edgepro and Sharpmaker. If you are not then I would say more than likely you have not gotten down to the very edge of your blades. Have you ever used the Sharpie trick? Cover the very edge with a black marker and then take a swipe and see where the stone is hitting. If it is hitting the shoulder of the bevel then it is going to take a long time to get sharp as that material has to be removed.

I find it easy to get a knife sharp using the Edgepro but I will use a marker every time I change stones to make sure the angle stays consistent. What is your process like? Have you watched any of the videos on Youtube? You will get lots of help soon. One of the other big keys to getting sharp is to raise a burr. That little lip of metal means that both sides of the blade have met at one sharp point and you then work the burr off and refine the edge until it is at the point you want. Stop at a coarse grit for a toothy edge or keep working until you have a mirror polish that will scare the hairs off your arm without even touching them.
 
I agree with the sharpee technique. I still use it occasionally especially when honing straight razors. Also keeping a look out for the burr to wait to change sides or stones. It is possible that both bevels just havn't met yet. Good luck.
 
I second the sharpie also as well as the edge burr. Also most of my knives have been converted to convex and this has solved just about any sharpening woes a person could ever have. Another problem you might be having is using too much pressure. That is something that I had to learn over time is using just the weight of the blade.
 
Your technique is probably the main issue, that and not forming the edge properly and proper use of your abrasives. No tool will ever replace the fact that you must have knowledge of what you are doing to do it right.

Work on getting a sharp edge with your coarse grits first.
 
Greetings PittViper: All the sharpening systems mentioned have several things in common. The most important one is YOU. The following are POSSIBLE reasons for your frustrations and concerns.
A) You may, in FACT, not have removed steel all the way to the extreme cutting edge. On a Sharpmaker ~ Alternating strokes on each rod prevents the creation of an obvious burr and makes confirming that the edge had been reached more difficult. On an EdgePro ~ allowing the blade edge to shift vertically on the table (even a little bit) or using inconsistent arm pressure will cause the stone to contact a slightly different area of the extreme edge. On a Lansky ~ inconsistent contact pressure can deflect a guide rod causing the same micro shifting in edge to stone contact angle and location. If you were sharpening a maul, it wouldn't matter. If you are pursuing a razor edge, IT DOES. Use the Sharpie marker trick. Examine the edge using a lens to confirm that you have not stopped (even a tiny - almost invisible fraction of a mm) short. Examine both sides of the blade. Just because you use the same number of strokes on each side does not mean you have reached the edges on both sides. A few "off angle" strokes that hit the very edge once or twice can create a sharp toothy edge in a few spots. These spots can make the edge feel sharp because it is toothy and it will easily saw it's way through paper. It will, however, not push cut the paper. Again look at it with a lens or try a slice cut vs. push cut through the same sheet of paper.

B) **** CONSISTENTLY maintain ALMOST PERFECT blade/stone/rod contact angle. The blade/rod/stone contact area is minute. A difference of two degrees when switching from the medium to the fine rods or switching stones makes a difference in the end result. The sharper an edge you wish, the more important YOUR precision becomes. If you are two degrees more acute you will miss the extreme edge and be polishing the shoulder. If you are two degrees more obtuse you will remove the edge you just created. The coarse stones SET the edge. The fine stones only REFINE it. Make sure the very edge has been reached and is very sharp with your low grit stones before going to a finer grit. Use the Sharpie marker to make sure the finer stones are hitting the exact angle and location as was set by the previous stones.
You know these System works. They have been created to REDUCE the result of user induced INCONSISTENCY in blade edge to stone contact angle. They reduce it but don't eliminate it. If you wish a precise edge you must be precise in your technique. Thousands of people use them and like the results. If neither the Sharpmaker nor EdgePro nor the Lansky are getting your knives sharp enough, then lack of consistent and precise technique may be the problem. Certain steels, grinds and blade shapes are harder to sharpen and maintain than others but most can be addressed successfully with the Lansky, Sharpmaker or the EdgePro. Consistent technique, even contact pressure, patience and PRACTICE will serve you well no matter what method you use. OldDude1
 
Thanks for the explanation olddude. I think you are correct in my not keeping the edge angle consistent is my problem, among others I'm sure. I will take your advice and try to raise a burr using the sharpmaker. That particular sharpener seems to have quite a following here.

Ciao...
 
I would suggest you use the Edgepro to try and learn what needs to be done. To me it is the easiest to get a knife sharp because it can help you hold the most consistent angle which is one of the keys to sharpening. I still suggest you take a look at the videos on Youtube and there is actually a new series put up a couple weeks ago by the maker of the Edgepro. Here is the first video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY6DJ0PQxyA

Here are some tips that I have found to help although I am still fairly new to the Edgepro and only have used it a couple dozen times. But from the first time I used it and every time since I have got a shaving edge. Part of how sharp a knife gets is the steel. I think the Blackout is 440A if I remember correctly which isn't great but like you said should get sharp. For me a lot of the higher end steels are actually easier to get reallly sharp than the cheaper usually softer steels. M4 and ZDP get super sharp without a lot of hassle. And actually Kershaws new 14C28N (I think thats right) gets super sharp really easily for me as well it just doesn't hold the edge quite as long as the others.

Again, I suggest you use the marker trick. For now just try to match the angle that is on the knife. There is a good chance the tip is a little more obtuse and you will have to work more on the tip and knock the shoulders down some before you get to the edge. Put the marker on and make a pass with your coarse stone and adjust the arm until it is taking off the marker across the whole edge bevel. Now without using a ton of pressure work one side. Make sure to hold the knife as steady as possible so that it doesn't rock as the stone moves across it. Keep working it until you form a burr. It doesn't have to be big and in fact the smaller the better because that is metal you can't put back on. A magnifying glass or the small pocket microscope available for 12 bucks at radio shack is really good to see what is happening along the very edge. For me the last little bit always seems to take the longest and is also where I start getting impatient. But keep going until you form a small burr on the opposite side that you are sharpening. You can see it under magnification, holding the blade in the light and moving it slowly until you can see a glint of light down the whole edge, or you can run your fingernail along and feel it grab right before it falls off the edge.

Once the burr is formed you switch sides and work that side until you do the same thing and the burr is back on the original side. You now want to use very light pressure and alternate sides to try and remove the burr. This is also the time to move up to a finer stone if the blade is sharp. You want to do the marker trick again because not all the stones are the same thickness and you might need to make a minor adjustment. Now you just work your way up through the stones to polish the edge and remove the burr. Like others have said you want to have a pretty darn sharp edge before moving to the next stone. It has to be sharp with the first stone because the other stones are just going to refine that edge and they won't actually make it sharp unless you spend a loooong time at it.

These are some other suggestions but require to buy more equipment which you shouldn't do until you get a good edge with what you have. You have some of the best equipment there is already and need to learn it. Once you get a shaving sharp edge one of the biggest jumps in sharpness I have experienced is using a nice leather (wood backed) strop with diamond spray on it. It will take a shaving edge and refine it to where it makes hairs pop off above the skin, whittle hairs, and a lot of the other sharpness tests people use. I suggest the handamerican.com 1 micron spray to start. Once you are able to get to a shaving sharp edge you will appreciate what the strop does. You can also use the strop to keep the knife sharp if you don't let it get too dull. That is another point, that it is always easier to keep a knife sharp than it is to let it get super dull and have to bring the edge back. But if you touch up the knife on the strop every day you use it you can go a long time between actual sharpenings.

The last thing I could recommend is getting a bench grinder and using paper wheels to sharpen. There are many threads here about them and they will get a knife razor sharp in just a few minutes. Because it is a machine there are some precautions you have to take for safety and to not over heat the blade but it works really good. It does take off more metal than hand sharpening so you can actually wear out a knife over a couple years if you sharpen a lot. But it gets really sharp really fast and is one of the best powered systems out there and is not too expensive especially if you already have a bench grinder. But this would be a last ditch suggestion if you just absolutely can not get your knives sharp with what you have now. It takes a little practice but it is easy to get a burr and then use the polishing wheel to knock the burr off and put a near mirror polish on.

But ask questions and let us know what you are doing and where you think you might be messing up. Also, let us know where you are as you might be living right down the street from someone who would be willing to show you the basics. When you let us know what you are doing it can be easier to try and trouble shoot what is going wrong.

Good luck!
 
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I think my trouble with the apex is that I cannot seem to hold the blade with one hand and sharpen with the other. I wish there was a way to "fix" the blade in place and then run the stone over it.. The youtube video makes it look so easy, but for me, in practice, it is not.

BTW, using the advice given, I managed the get my Blackout to shave hair using the sharpmaker.

Thanks, now I need more advice on the Apex and Lansky.

Ciao,,,

Viper
 
On the Edgepro you want to try and rest it on a flat spot on the blade. Many don't have a flat spot so I will lay it on the primary bevel and then adjust the arm accordingly. Just always try to put the blade in the same spot when you move it and from side to side. I will use the thumbstud and the tip of the knife as reference points to make sure I am putting it in the same place each time.
 
what I do is a have a cheap sharpening stone, I use that and then a honing rod. It makes most knives sharp like razors, depending on the blade type and quality.
 
PittViper said:
Thanks, now I need more advice on the Apex and Lansky.
Click to expand...

It's basically impossible not to get a great edge on the lansky, assuming the clamp fits on the knife spine. These instructions are for the diamond lansky hones and a really dull blade:

1. Put a small rectangular piece of masking tape on the spine so it covers the top and a few millimeters down each side of the blade where you'll be attaching the lansky. The piece of tape should be as wide as the lansky so the clamp isn't touching bare metal, just the tape.

2. Put on the clamp. I have an old one with aluminum/metal screws so I used a screwdriver to really tighten the clamp on once I've eyeballed it. Make sure the clamp is on straight with the angle holes perpendicular to the blade. Tighten it up well.

3. Put the coarsest stone in the rod, tighten it up. Test the rod in all of the angle holes on both sides of the blade until you get down to the lowest one where the rod/stone won't hit the clamp/screws instead of the blade, hopefully 20 or 17 degrees or whatever they use now.

4. Put a cloth on your leg, have a wet cloth nearby. Rest the lansky clamp on your leg on the cloth, leaving the blade hanging clear between your legs. Hold the clamp from the back where the screws are so you're not torquing/bending it when you use it. Put a dab of oil on the rod, put the rod in the angle hole you've chosen, and start smoothly grinding away up and down while always pressing down and not letting the rod jump around the angle hole. Frequently stop to quickly clean the metal bits off the stone and blade with the wet rag, then dab both dry using a dry cloth and continue.

5. Keep grinding on one side until the opposite side of the edge has a burr you can feel with your hand all the way to the tip. Some areas may need more work than others.

6. When you have a complete burr, flip the knife over and do the same thing with the other side.

7. When you've created the burr on both sides, swap out the coarse stone for a medium one, then do steps 4-6 again.

8. Swap out the stone for a fine one, then do steps 4-6 again. When you're done and both sides have formed a complete burr very lightly start alternating passes on each side, still cleaning the stone/blade frequently. After 10 or 15 light passes you're done ! If you have a finer stone feel free to continue with it instead of stopping. I'd use the coarse then fine diamond stones then the 1000 grit fine ceramic.

9. Remove the clamp and the tape, you're done!
 
I am not sayin' that I have the answer, I think I might have tried everything except richardj's wheels. After about 20 years of "learning", I got it right with a pair of old school stones. I bought myself a nice set (4) of stones to celebrate, and can do very well for even the most harshest of critics.

Matt
 
I'm taking my mobile set of "wheels" to a friends house to touch up some kitchen knives before a gathering tonight. They really do a nice job once you get the hang of them. I would suggest learning to use what you already have, but keep the concept of the wheels in the back of your mind for when you are ready to expand your options.
 
I sharpened 10 knives from completely dull and chipped to very sharp in about 20 mins. To give you all an idea of how bad the knives were, I started with an 80 grit belt sander before moving to the wheels. It was like removing serrations but they were not serrated knives. I knew that heading in which is why I brought the extra abrasive option.

The knives were two cheap santoku knives 4" and 7", Chef knife 8", Filet knife 9", Boning knife 6", Utility knife 7", slicing 8", paring knives x3 @ 3" each.

I removed all edge damage with the 80 grit belt sander until the burr created was consistant, then I moved onto the grit paper wheel and then on to the white rouge charged buffing paper wheel. No burr remained and the edges looked wet they were so reflective.
 
Hi There,

Order a set or the wheels Richard spoke about and get a Harbor freight buffer, about 40, 50 bucks and you'll have the sharpest knives you ever had !

I'm the guy Richard spoke about who was so excited. The wheels are a miracle . There is a learning curve but in about 15 minuts you should have a knife shaving sharp. I would advice you try beater knives first it takes practice but in time you'll get good. That's what I need myself but I know in about a week I'll be pretty good. Also call Richard he'll be more than glad to help you and answer your questions

Electric
 
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