Mystery steel economy

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Recently I have seen several posts on knives made from found steel.
With the exception of pre-1990 auto springs (most likely 5160?),unknown steel is a bad choice.Lawn mower blades and edger blades are usually not the right kind of steel.Saw blades less than 24" diameter are most likely not the right steel either (the bigger ones may not be either).The question you should ask is not,"Can I make a knife out of it?" (you can make a "knife" out of a piece of wood) but," Can I make a good knife,and heat treat it right,out of it?"
The economy of saving on the steel is so poor that it is counter productive.

Consider these things:
The average piece of steel costs about $10 (or less) to make a good knife.
It may take you five hours(or more) to make the knife.
The only part of the knife that matters ,as far as quality goes,is the blade.
You can guess,but you can't rely on heat treating mystery steel.
At least half of the "found" metal used may be unsuitable or inferior for knives.
How will you feel about knife making if all that effort ends with a knife that won't stay sharp,or breaks in half.

I am amazed that people pay $100 for cell phone usage,$50 for HBO cable,$30 for Internet connection,$5 for a cup of Starbucks,......EACH MONTH...
and try to save a few dollars on something that they want to be proud of for the next 50 years.
I consider my professional time at $50-100/hr.I consider my knife making time at $20/hr. If you figure your time at only $5/hr you have at least $25 invested in your knife.................Isn't that worth $5-10 in the steel?
Stacy E.Apelt

 

[Chant]

It may take you five hours(or more) to make the knife.
Stacy E.Apelt

I wish.

Very good point. I made my first knife out of mild steel, thinking I'd screw it up anyway, why waste good tool steel. The knife turned out great. I pick it up often, look at it, admire it, and regret that I didn't use a proper (and known) steel.

 

[Pete Allan]

I am just a hobby maker of knifes but a few years ago I spent maybe $75 on some 1080/1084 and have made about 25 knives so far. I have given away some knives and sold some and the ones I sold each paid for the whole batch of steel. Looking at my steel supply I think I have at least 1/2 of it left so I personally think people are really wasting their time even trying mystery steel.

 

[John Frankl]

Right ON!

I spend at least $5 every day on coffee; boy does that add up.

Steel is one of the least expensive while also being THE most important part of a knife.

No brainer,

John

 

[butcher_block]

i hear that i just spent 250$ on steel and it got me 13 feet od different kinds of CPM steel all 1.5" wide
6' cpm154 3/16"
4' cpm10v 1/8"
3' cpm3v 3/16"
no use putting time into something that at best might work OK

 

[jhiggins]

This is such an excellent point you bring up Stacy, my old friend. In my thoughts there are two schools of thought regarding knifemaking. You have the people who use identified steels and manufacture the knife according to specific guidelines created by the steel industry scientists. This produces a knife with a known crystalline structure and hardness.

Then you have the people who follow a neo-tribal path to knifemaking in which they scrounge scrap steels, axle shafts, leaf springs, etc, and make their knives from these materials. The whole idea behind this style of knifemaking is to live frugally and to recycle.

Its all good.

I like your point however. I think folks should keep in mind that there may be some costs that just cant be lowered if you want to make knives consistently. There is nothing finer than making a blade from a bar of creamy-smooth, precision-ground O-1. It sure saves a lot of time, and the heat-treating goes flawlessly. Why? Because you are getting what you paid for. Farting around with lawnmower blades and leaf springs may help you pass the time but its better to start fresh.

Good post, Stacy! :thumbup:

 

[Bruce Evans]

I would have to agree and disagree with this statement....Sorry...

I belive that a begginner to this art may not alays be able to afford to buy a known steel or if they are not sure they will even like the craft why spend allot of money.Recycled steel is not always bad,infact allot of great knives have been made from scrap steel,it is also a great way to learn how to properly heat treat a blade,you dont just stick steel in a fire and quench and say I got it,no you have to do a little experimenting at first to see just what it will take to make this steel work and perform like it should to make a great knife.Scrap steel is also a great way to experiment with different types and grades of steel to get the results from the steel you want without putting out hundreds of dollars in steels you may not like or be able to heat treat properly.once you have the experimenting down it is allot easier to justify ordering one certain steel and then learn how to get the maximume from that steel that you can.Heck even Ed Fowler started off with scrap bearings before he got serious with the 52100 and now buys new steel.

If a maker is going to use scrap steel then the maker should also know that for each piece of new scrap they use they will have to test the blade to adjust all heat treat processes to make the most from that piece,this is because you can never take for granted exactely what a manufacturer uses at any given time for the steel.Different companies use different steels for the same applications at times also.So dont fall into the trap that you know exactely what the steel is by what the product was,not all ball bearings are made the same as Ed will tell you.

As for taking 5 hours to make a knife,I would hate to see what can be made in 5 hours,me personaly I take longer than that on just the rubbed finish on my knives,yes even the hunting knives take longer than that.I wish I could get $20.00 a hour for my knives,usually when all is said and done I run more in the $5.00 hr range.I make knives for the love of the knife not the money most of the time,it is hard to put a hourly wage on artistic creativity most of the time.I just try to make a living at what I love not get rich ( ever heard the saying " Starving Artist") Most artists work never gains in mometery value till after they have died,only a lucky few ever get the credit they deserve while they are alive.

This all said,The blade is most definately a big factore in a kifes ability to be a knife,but the handle is just as important,If it doesnt fit yur hand you will never use it for one.Then if a handle is not properly attached to the knife guess what it will fail in a hard use situation,leaving the user with a sharpened piece of steel that they can not hold onto untill they can find something and attach it to the sharpened piece of steel and be able to use it again,also if the handle is not properly attached in a hundred years from now will the knife still be alive and a living tribute to the maker,probably not.When making your choice of handle material you have to consider what the knife will be used for the most,and if the material isnt a strong one then yu must think of how to make it stronger like mabe a framed handle with scales or a full tang knife.I carving a handle from a solid block of wood (any wood) how does the grain structure run,are you leaving a weak spot that can break in use,Look at furniture and tool handles,all grain is set for maximume performance with less likely hood of a failure due to grain.This should also be thought about when making mans oldest tool,a knife..Think about this,One of the most popular handle materials is Stag,hey the whole shed is scrap the Stag didnt need it anymore and he threw it away to never look for it again,then man finds it and says hey that is beautiful and would work great for my knife handle..Recycling to it's greatest...

A knife isnt just the blade or handle or sheath,it is a complete package that the maker should always think about every aspect of when making a knife.If all is well thought out and executed correctly you have a great knife,if not you dont.This is true no matter if you use scrap steel for the blade or scrap material for the handle.When all is thought out correctly a very awesome knife can be made from nothing but scrap materials from start to finish!

Personally I dont put a knife down because of the material,but I will if all is not thought out and done correctly...Something for all who say scrap shouldnt be used to think about:
These men either used scrap alll the time or started with scrap steel...
William Scagel
Bo Randall
Bob Loveless
Rudy Ruanna
Nelson Cooper
and my favorite: James Black for using a old file and a piece of metiorite to make the first BOWIE knife (as legend has it)

So to me the materials used are not as important as the knowledge and reasons for the materials are that have been used on a knife.

Sorry to be so long winded here,
Just my 2 cents worth,
Bruce

 

[Amescua]

Hello everybody my name is Mike and I live in central Texas I have not posted to many times but I do read all of your great questions and replys almost every day and it has helped me alot. I use 52100 and 5160 on most of the knives I have made so for but I found an old chisel that my father had used laying in the dirt at the old home place took it home forged a small hunter out it and it has turned out to be one of my best knives. It is not just the price of the steel that matters I think some of us like making something useful out of something some one else has thrown away.

 

[Bruce Evans]

Something else to think about...The steel I use exclusively is 5160 got 1500 pounds of it when I got it.Now this steel was new steel but! It came from a local spring factory and was the cut off ends from the bars they were using.Documented new steel all from the same batch.This was bought at scrap prices from the spring factory before they sent it to the local scrap yard.This is the best 5160 I have ever used and have never had a inclusion or problem heat treating it.Now since it was new stock from the factory but scrap from the spring maker is it inferrior steel,NO! just a known steel at a great price going to the scarp dealer would have cost more money for the same batch of steel but still could have been bought,still not a bad steel because it was from a scrap yard.You just have to do your homework and find what you like.

Anybody can make a blade from a known steel and have it proffesionally heat treated and have a great knifebut not everybody has the willingness or "want to" ability to make the same great knife on there own.
Bruce

 

[butcher_block]

Something else to think about...The steel I use exclusively is 5160 got 1500 pounds of it when I got it.Now this steel was new steel but! It came from a local spring factory and was the cut off ends from the bars they were using.Documented new steel all from the same batch.This was bought at scrap prices from the spring factory before they sent it to the local scrap yard.This is the best 5160 I have ever used and have never had a inclusion or problem heat treating it.Now since it was new stock from the factory but scrap from the spring maker is it inferrior steel,NO! just a known steel at a great price going to the scarp dealer would have cost more money for the same batch of steel but still could have been bought,still not a bad steel because it was from a scrap yard.You just have to do your homework and find what you like.

Bruce

Documented new steel now that sounds much better and when you get it 200 lb and up i see no problem in it
the load is all the same steel makeup and you have more then you need to test and tune the steel to your liking for a great blade
its the i have a file and a saw blade and a bike chain what knives can i make out of it
for me if i had spent hours of my time to make a knife shaped object just to find out it wouldnt cut well maybe not because of heat treat but it just being the wrong steel you can bet i wouldnt be happy
if it was the first or second knife shaped thing i made i might have gotten turned off to knife making


after getting a feel of what can be done with a known steel and heat treat sure have some fun try some stuff out but make sure you have plenty of steel to test with
well i think that came out right :foot:

 

[Ramsey]

The using of something that already exist in a tool form or spring tells one something; It says that it was good enough to do what ever it was designed for, and in most cases very well. I have read that saws with carbide teeth brazed or inserted are not carbon steel so I had one tested in a lab and it was very good steel, they faxed me a brakedown of the elements. Sometimes when using a pre-existing material from a saw (tool) will provide one with a source that does not even exist as far as buying "knife steel", and will also provide one with the opportunity to learn how to preform a number of test in his/her own shop to assertain if or not it is sutibale for a knife. This is also a skill that is not necessarly developed when the steel being used comes with its element content on a label. Some make very wonderful knives and are available in a pariticular product. The same can be said concerning heat-treating a knife. Some of the skills needed to do it with a fire (torch) and more primitive ways are discounted as being less accurate and that is only because so many never get enough experience at using the tools in order to be successful at it. When history concerning forging and heat-treat from all countries tells us that they didn't use digital ovens, then what is it saying? That they had developed a craft and became very good at it. Making my living by using my hands is something that I have always done, but I was always learning and improving, something that I plan to do as long as I exist on this planet. Personally, I use new and pre-existing material and enjoy both. Not against modern technology, but like to hang on to some things that others learned in the old school and also use new tech. as well. Years ago when I used to set up at shows I would try and take some knives with me made from old files. invariably many would walk by and say "I used to have a knife made from a file". Using things from the past can have a sort of spiritual affect on folks, kinda like finding an arrowhead (point) in a plowed field. Making the handles from an old axe handle that my dad once used or the blade from an old piece of rebar that was once part a bridge but gave way to modern times (local historY). Even if they are not (maybe) the best steel in the world, they are more meaningful.

"Telling everything you know is as bad as believing everything you hear"
Ramsey

 

[J.Marsillo]

I have to agree with Bruce and Stacy and Jeff well everyone has exellent points here.I rememer Jeffs post a while back, whats your time worth? It made perfect cents to me.If anyone critized me for the materials i choose i take it as constructive critisizm.
For me its not about saving money on new steel or cutting corners,its about the steel, plain and simple.I am a union iron worker and on a daily basis i'm surrounded by lots of different types of steel's.The simple fact that i can use the same peice of cable that will hoist a 30 ton machine or swing a 4 ton beam into my hand to make a fine blade,that just makes me tingle.It means something to me sentimentally and artisticly.I'm not really doing this for the money and i admire those who do.I started making knives for fun and maybe to pay for itself.For me it really is for the love of the craft and the science of it all,the metalurgy ,the fire ,the history and the pure fact that i can make one of mans oldest tools.
All this being said anyone want to buy some crane cable and ball mill balls LOL

 

[jhiggins]

Oh don't get me wrong, here. I am an advocate of stock steels for knifemaking for the reasons that you know exactly what you have and that this knowledge results in a high degree of predictability. Lord knows how many axes and bowie blades I made back in my forging days from old derrick springs and leaf springs.

I agree with Bruce that there have been some very nice knives made from some very prestigious makers that were merely scrap before they were caressed into knives. I was going on the premise that a novice knifemaker would better learn the art by eliminating the unknowns as much as possible.

This desire to lessen the number of variables that could seriously effect the resulting blade should be a quest for anyone interested in learning bladesmithing or stock-removal knifemaking.

 

[Bruce Evans]

"Using things from the past can have a sort of spiritual affect on folks, kinda like finding an arrowhead (point) in a plowed field. Making the handles from an old axe handle that my dad once used or the blade from an old piece of rebar that was once part a bridge but gave way to modern times (local historY). Even if they are not (maybe) the best steel in the world, they are more meaningful.Ramsey"

This statement I have found to be so true over the years:thumbup: Let's see now,If I said I couldnt use scrap I would have never tried the knife I made from a Harley Davidson kick stand or a Harley drive chain either.I would never have ever thought about making Cable Damascus or never made knives from Files for all the guys around me that do the rondevous or thought about the wrench knives I have made so many of.Wanna see a old timmer smile big--if he is a old rail road man make him a knife from a RXR spike,a farmer use a plow point or J D Load shaft,a carpenter make one from a hammer head or crow bar,old hay rake tines make excelent blades and makes people think of fond memories of childhood days...We dont just make knives we create memories and lasting loves for people.Personally I have seen alll these materials used to make excellent knives,even seen a China made flat crowbar made into a knife that won second place at Batsons symposyum cutting competition years ago ( the guy said the bar cost $.99) but with some knowledge of heat treat he made it work...

When I first started making knives I didnt have a teacher or the internet bt a couple of issues of Blade mag. and then a copy of the Bo Randall story.I learned heat treat from that book.I did ask a few people at machine shops and one old Blacksmith.none at that time could tell me anymore than the Randall book.I even asked the old Smith about forge welding Damascus he couldnt help me(in fact when he retired he was still amazed that I could forge weld cable)I didnt have any ready available steel suppliers around or anything.I just got some SCRAP steel and got busy,sure I made some mistakes and had failures,so what that was a learning curve.I had no ovens or anything,I learned to do my heat treat in the forge fire by eye,and make the knives work...Scagel didnt use modern tecnology in fact he didnt even have electricity in his shop,and his knives are still bragged on today.See when I started I understood one thing---If you can harden it and it breaks then you can make a knife out of it! perioed,alll ya had to do was check the hardness after tempering and adjust the colors accordingly.Randall didnt use the new ovens and things back then and his knives went to the moon and saved a lot of soldiers butts during the wars....do you see a pattern here...sure you may be able to make a knife cut a little better by using a known steel and new high tech machines.But or country wasnt founded on new stuff it was founded on what was at hand and worked....

I say if a man wants to make himself a knife out of his Granfathers old file as his first knife then why not,learn the heat treat methods and check it to make sure it works as it should for the new given task,not look down on him beause he used a file first.

Lets look at this in a different way:
If I was told back when I started making knives that I had to buy a bunch of expensive steel (any steel is expensive if you dont have any money)and I had to spend thousands on a electric heat treat oven so I could temper correctly and I had to buy a expensive factory built gas forge (or I couldnt weld)Then i had to have a press to weld under,than I couldnt grind or shape a knife without the best high dollar grinder available guess what...That would have stopped me sooner than trying different heat treats.Mo9st start this as a hobby with little or now experience with tools or metalurgical skills and less money..So why should people condem a aspiring maker for using scrap I for one will never do that.I hope to think that the new guy I helped out on how to make a knife from a file may one day become a famous name in the knifemaking circle.Instead of discouraging him at the get go.

My first forge was a old kitchen sink lined with clay from the back hillside cola that wasnt that good and the first thing I forged was a piece of cable damascus.I didnt really have a 2X72 grinder for years but tried anything I could get my hands on..I tried what I wanted with what I had,it didnt make me quit only it made me thirst for more knowledge.And then as I got to get different pieces of equipment I did better work,but only after i took a while to learn how to use that equipment.I couldnt even read a dial caliper when I started,I have been left behind by modern technology.Does this make me a worse maker than anyone else..Maybe but I cant be the judge of that.I did pass my JS cut and bend heat treating by eye and tempering in a scrounged toaster oven,with no cracks at all ( Jerry Fisk tested me and made me do more than the test required also) I also passed my MS cut and bend doing all by eye and using the same toaster oven...does this make me a bad maker only my customers can say...13 years of making knives and not one returned knife or a bad comment about there performance....And I have used a bunch of scrap steel over the years (not including the big batch of 5160 I use mostly now)If I do use something other than the 5160 I check it out and make sure it works correctly.To me that is all part of the craft of making a knife...

Scrap is not bad--dont discurage the new maker because he doesnt have anything but a torch,file and a hammer and rock to pound on a old file he wants to make a knife from...heck he may suprise you with a gorgeous piece of art that will cut and cut and cut...then some day he can pass on the knowledge he has gained and honestly say he earned it the hard way!

In my humble opinion,the best lessons learned have been from making mistakes and learning how to correct it.

Just some more of my 2 cents worth,
Bruce

"The soul of a knife begins in the fire"

 

[butcher_block]

with out files i wouldnt have made my first 5 knives so no i cant /wolnt bash someone fro using scrap steel
the files left me wanting more and as a stock remover full hard files used up belts very fast
bar stock worked much better for me then
also now that im sorta plaing around forging i was using bearring races from off a large washer motor and be sure that there will be much more scrap used till i even get close to making a real knife by forging it out
butch

 

[birdog4]

bruce , your 2¢ is worth a whole bunch more than that

 

[Greg Obach]

very good post.. !!
I don't think it matters where good material comes from.... as long as you can make the best knife you can, from it

working with recycled steels and figuring out the heat treat is a good skill to know... wait till you make your own steel.... then you'll see that skill will make life much easier.... as there will be no spec's to follow....

take care
Greg

 

[B . Buxton]

I made a bunch of knives over the years using leaf springs, just test them for hardenability before you get to carried away. they can be the best, cheap way to learn knifemaking skills of all sorts. Once you get good and confident with your skills then move up to steels that you know the exact make up every time so you'll always know what your dealing with, and not have to test every few blades like you do with different springs. I learned how to forge using leaf springs, I could wail away and if it went south I could grab another piece and start over, scrap steel can give you hours of arm building exercise and not cost anything but gas money..

Hey Bruce, you going for your MS this year??

Have fun,

Bill

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

All good points.
The main thing I was getting at is that if the steel is "UNKNOWN" then you can't do a proper HT ,if it will even harden at all. Experienced makers and those who have studied ,know how to determine the usability of salvaged steel.Those who take any piece of metal and make a knife out of it(without testing or research) are playing roulette.It may work...it may not.

All those great makers of old that were listed KNEW what the steel was.It came from a tool or item of a known steel composition.They often had it tested as well.John Deere load shafts,truck springs,OLD chisels and files,mill saws,etc. are 95% sure items when it comes to usability.NEW springs,mower and edger blades,NEW files,"scrap bin" finds....are not.
(BTW, W.Scagel ,once he started making quality knives for retail sale,used steel only from one mill .He said he could not rely on steel from any other factory being good enough.He had it shipped from England,a cost that was dear to such a frugal man.)

Those who posted about the merits of Mystery Steel stated that they know how to tell it from junk.I use non-supplier steel,too.I have forged blades from turning tools used to turn Russian steam locomotive wheels, roller bearings,John Deere shafts,OLD files,etc. It is fun and usually rewarding.However,the first knives I forged,45 years ago,were from re-bar and rail road spikes.They were not good knives.When I learned about knife making,I used better steels.

No one has to buy,"A whole lot of expensive steel." to start.You can buy a foot from a supplier,have some given to you by a maker (who will teach you how to use it), or get it from a " scrap" source that knows what it is (spring shop,machine shop,good scrap yard,etc.).

One point is,...If a new maker doesn't know what it is with a fair certainty,then he/she shouldn't use it.
The other point is that it is hard enough for a new maker to learn good heat treating methods,without having the added problem of unknown materials.

BTW,I agree that the 5 hours was low for many knives.It was to show the comparative high value of your work over the low cost of the steel.I have put hundreds of hours into some knives/swords (One sword is listed at $5000,that is about $20/hr plus the materials).
Stacy

 

[Bruce Evans]

Bill,I still dont think I am ready to be a MS...

Stacey,I just dont want a newby to think they cant use a unknown steel,I have found that the rewards are higher when you have to work for the end results.When things are to easy to do there is no challenge and thus the average person might just move on to something more challenging.As I have said before,I learned more from my mistakes in the past and having to figure out how to fix the problem.

Bruce