Mystery steel economy

I still think you are missing my point.The key word is UNKNOWN ( I have no problem with using salvaged steel that you know what it is,although I personally use factory steel 99% of the time).If it is unknown,then how can you use it.If you test it and determine what it is and how it works,then it is not UNKNOWN.
I would never drink an unknown liquid,eat an unknown berry,sleep with an unknown girl (OK maybe I've done that),or use an unknown steel.
I agree that for new makers, working a salvaged steel of KNOWN composition is nostalgic and fun.
 
ok now i have a question. i have a set of leaf springs from a 1966 dodge coronet ive been holding onto for about a year, wanting to know if they would make a good blade. i was going to send them to work with my dad for metallurgical testing,probably still will. is it possible these are 5160? wy family and myself have had a fetish revolving around muscle cars and if these springs will work i can get my hands on literally thousands of pounds for free.if any one thinks these will work could you please let me know?
i want to say thanks for the great posts and the info that you guys can provide

mike
 
Will the 1966 dodge leaf springs make a knife, Yes! A Good knife blade? Probably. A superior, Blade. Not hardly! One of the reasons to make a knife your self is to make a better cutting instrument than you can go to the store and buy. Knives in the stores are cheap, when you consider all the work, and research that goes into making a really good knife, using lower quality materials just doesn't make since. Sure the steel may be free. Are your knives going to be free? If not, You owe it to your customers to use competent materials. Quality steel just isn't that expensive. Even if you have the steel tested, and it proves to be 5160, that doesn't mean them didn't make a mid-year change, or a change between years, as is so common in Detroit. Even if it was all 5160. It's still 5160. Do you want to make quality knives or quality car springs. Spring steel is not cutlery steel Mike
 
Mike have them tested and if they are 5160 heat treat as such if anything else heat treat accordingly.I dont know when 5160became a inferior steel or not a knife steel.It has been used for years and has won many cutting compatitions.Dont use the steel just because it is free but use it because yu like the steel and the blades works as yu want it to.Now I would have each set of springs tested as the makers could and did change steels sometimes.

I dont make car springs but I do make a quality knife with 5160 and have had it tested as a knife several times by others besides myself.My knives will out cut anything Walmart has to offer or most any knife the local sporting goods store has to offer also.If this is your steel of choice then use it and take it to it's maximum potential,if your not happy with the reults your getting from that steel then try something different untill you find the steel that works the best for you.

In my humble opinion I feel that the beggining smith that doesnt play with unknown steels and learn how to heat treat these steels to make a quality knife blade is doing themselves a injustice.As there will come a day when something can and will go wrong with a batch of bought known steel,and without the knowledge to be able to figure out how to use that steel then they will just be out steel and money,every time you buy a new batch of steel you will have to go through the heat treat and tempering proccess again for that batch of steel,you will never get stel from a supplier even a month from yur last order that will be run from the same batch of steel as the one you have.Thus it can be a little different.If you dont understand the heat treat proccess from un known steel you will be stuck at what ever you think will work if you dont test.

I know 5160 makes a quality Blade and will not accept that it wont.I know because I can do it and have proved it for years.

The steel of choice is up to the individual smith and what his customers want,as long as the smith can work a steel and do it correctly and will stand behind his work,the only other person that has to be pleased is the person buying the knife and this really is the bottom line of it all.

Who here has the guts to walk up to any of the big name makers and tell them they are making a inferior product becaus of the steel they chose for the knife,Not me,I find out why and most of the time they will say"Because I can"I know allot of these guys personally and none have anything against properly heat treated 5160 some still use it themselves for certain knives.

if you think it is bad to use a spring steel then I guess you dont like 1080/1084 or 1095 as both these have been used as springs also...

I will shut up now,
Bruce

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"The soul of a knife begins in the fire"
 
if you think it is bad to use a spring steel then I guess you dont like 1080/1084 or 1095 as both these have been used as springs also...
bruce

i didnt say that i dont like spring steel. im not sure if i like spring steel as all i have forged is o-1. actually the only way i can get any 1080,1084 or 1095 is to order it. my local steel company doesnt carry it and cant get it in

mlovett
im just curious if it was worth going through the trouble of the cost of testing
you bring up a good point, i refuse to use inferior materials in anything i do.my job pays enough that its not worth it to me to use inferior materials. i was just wondering. ill still use it to practice different grinds so im not wasting precision ground stock.im fortunate enough to have a good friend working at the local steel company that takes REAL good care of me.actually he just gave me 2 peices of o-1 3"x10"x11" to use as a makeshift anvil until i can find a good one locally.
once again just a curious inquiry
 
As far as making a good knife you can do those test that are quick and easy to do in your shop and have been discussed many times; spark test, hardness test (with a dull file and also with a new file), brake test, cutting test, bend test, etc. Regardless of what some say the steel isn't the most important part of a knife. If that were true then everyone could use the same steel and get the same results, but we know that doesn't happen if we have been around very long. You would have a big arguement on your hands if you told some of the old blacksmiths that you can't make a knife from something that they have successfully done many times and developed ways to do it. We would all agree that if you start with a known carbon content and Cr ect.... that you shorten the learning curve. Maybe it all depends on just what all one wishes to learn. It seems to me that the "most important" part of a knife is the heat-treat involved with making it. The carbon content of a knife can change from various procedures while forging, this is how damascus was discovered, They folded it in order to keep it in the fire longer gaining more carbon, therefore, the tools lasted a lot longer. Being able to control those things can determine just how good the knife performs. If you purchase D-2 steel and have not learned how to properly harden and temper it then regardless of how nice the knife looks from engraving to inlay work it is useless without a good making process. Some of the things I watched and helped my grandfather make 55 years ago when I only 5 years old started to "jell" many years later when I began making knives. It seems to me that we can all start making knives at different stages as far as the steel is concerned, but we should realize that today we live in a world of instant gradification, like praying for patients and asking for them "right now" ? We sometimes "don't know what we don"t know". We don't miss something if we don't know about it or have never had it. That is the way it is climing the learning latter; if we take a run at it jump and skip a few rungs we might be ahead of someone else, but are we really, what did we miss on the way. A person needs to forge, forge, forge to shape to learn their tools and how to control them in order to be successful. If someone asked you to come over to a place and to give them a demonstration of forging could you say yes I can do that, or would you say well.......I would, but I'm not sure I can. When we really know what we are doing regardless if it is running a machine or using a hammer we need to be competent (qualified), even then things can go wrong, but only occasionally. We need to be "kind" and not tell someone that you don't even have to have a brain to figure that out. Even though that term has become common in our society it stll can be painful in certain situations. "The more we know the more we realize what we don't know"

Ramsey
 
AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!

I couldnt sleep at all last night thinking of this thread.Ramsey has hit all my thoughts on the head:cool:

The only thing I have to add is that if you want perfect results all the time then sell all the equipment in the smithy and use that money to buy some stainless stock and then send it off to Paul and get a proffessional heat treat done,and pray the whole time that the human factor didnt show up anywhere in the steel proccess before you got the steel delivered and keep praying that it is the steel exactly mixed perfectly in every batch so you get the perfect edge every time (like this will happen,we all are human and bound to make mistakes).....

Now I will shut up on this subject as it isnt worth another sleepless night.

Bruce

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The Soul of the Knife begins in the FIRE !!!!!!!!!
 
Bruce Evans said:
AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!

I couldnt sleep at all last night thinking of this thread.Ramsey has hit all my thoughts on the head:cool:

The only thing I have to add is that if you want perfect results all the time then sell all the equipment in the smithy and use that money to buy some stainless stock and then send it off to Paul and get a proffessional heat treat done,and pray the whole time that the human factor didnt show up anywhere in the steel proccess before you got the steel delivered and keep praying that it is the steel exactly mixed perfectly in every batch so you get the perfect edge every time (like this will happen,we all are human and bound to make mistakes).....

Now I will shut up on this subject as it isnt worth another sleepless night.

Bruce

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The Soul of the begins in the FIRE !!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
hahahh thats why i use CPM steel:D
that said people do mess up and you can count on that
i thank all for this thread and the things gleemed from it
and you can bet that when i change the tortion bars off my truck for HD ones that the old ones will help me learn forging and heat treat not using my kiln
with at least 10 feet of bar of the truck i should be able to make some worth keeping:)
butch
 
mike, Bruce, Ramsey, All good points! I went thru all this 30 plus years ago. i just feel that it is the very early stages of a starting point. Not at all where I am now. Looking back, I feel I would have better served to embrace the Science, rather than the black arts end of things. Although it brought much pleasure and discovery, each batch, and situation was different. My mentor once told me, that if you don't know all the variables, and you do well, you just had a happy accident. In his words, " We aren't looking for happy accidents, but rather predictable results, every time'.( R.W.Loveless). I think his advice is even more valid today than back in the day! Bruce, I just re read your post. then my own. I never said that 5160 was an inferior steel. I said that it wasn't a superior steel. There is a world of difference. I just don't think of it as a truly superior steel. Not compared to what is available today. As to the testing, please go back and re read the original post that started this thread. the poster was not talking about testing in the shop, but rather sending out the steel to have it tested. I can see all kinds of problems with this. how do you know that its not a mixed batch, as it is being found in a notoriously ever changing supply. Most folks wouldn't have the means to have this done at any where a reasonable rate. This in not the same as in shop testing-IE,. Spark. abrasion, bending, cutting, hardness. I ad to this, is I had to test every piece of stock i use in the shop before making a knife out of it, I would be much further behind than my usual 4 to 5 year back log. Testing each knife to failure is also out of the question, as there would be nothing for the customer. Some of the test, even highly regarded ones, used to pass knives, I consider to be utter failure. I would not put such a knife out of my shop. I don't care what letters are in front of the test. Mike
 
as far as selling knives to other people go,i dont think i have enough time under my belt to try that. right now im just making "practice knives" for friends and family to beat the crap out of.i am just having a hard time aquiring good materials because i dont have a credit card to order online. i just have to make the best of what i can get my hands on locally.as of right now its o-1, d2 , 420, 440c and hopefully 1084 from my friend at a local machine shop. is there any seller who do c.o.d.? i do alot of business on ebay because i can send a money order for payment, but finding good steel on there is few and far between. thats why i was curious. ijust want to get some practice and find what works for me before i try to sell to the public. i just dont want to make a knife for someone and have it fail because i skipped an important step in the design process. i greatly appreciate all the advice that every one has posted here and in all the other posts, i will try to learn all that i can from them

thanks
mike
 
try Sheffield supply, miss Ann Sheffield 1-800-874-7007. All the steels you list are fine, except the 420. its a low grade. steel. unfortunatly, several factorys are using it for the initial cost, machining cost, and heat treating in bulk cost. For us, the custom maker, there is no reason to use it. Mike
 
No one has all the same experiences, and many of our own experiences can not be repeated exactly. Some folks have 30 years experience and others repeat one year 30 times without a lot of differences. One thing we might ask is, if you were going to have heart surgery and a doctor told you he/she had a wall covered with degrees and had the text book memorized as to how to perform it, but had never done one or if another doctor only had the required degree (s) and had performed hundreds of that type surgery without a problem, which one would you rather have? Probably the experienced one. The post I made stated that we can make knives starting at various stages, but that is something each person has to decide for himself. It seems to me that a lot of folks got into knife making because of the history behind some of the makers and wanted to experience some of the same things in their learning. On the other hand some folks refer to skills as having the ability to pick up the phone and order in a bar of steel to be ground, send it out to heat treat, and then to have a sheath made. From there it one can add many other things, just depending on what it is you wish to add to the knife. How many of those things can one sign his/her name to. If that is what anyone is happy doing then that is fine, but that doesn't bring a person any closer to doing it like they read about. As far as 5160 being used in cutlery... If it can not be used in making knives (cutlery) then why do the ABS use it to teach forging, and the various aspects of heat treating. I still have my test knife that I made there under the supervision of Jay Hendrickson in 1991 and it performed just like they said it would. Two weeks of very heavy forging without the use of power equipment. Even though I had worked with steel many years prior to that experience I learned so....much. I have been back to the school many times since to add to my knowledge and skills. Mike, you said that you didn't say that "5160 was an inferior steel", but here is a quote, your exact words..... "Even if it was all 5160. It's still 5160. Do you want to make quality knives or quality car springs. Spring steel is not cutlery steel Mike" I didn't change anything, just cut and pasted it here. Not trying to be mean, but perhaps for some reason I misconstrued what it was you were saying. This is found at the end of post # 23. Until recently there never has been a steel made just for making knives, but I understand that there is one or perhaps a few now being made for the cutlery business. The important thing is that we do our knife making in what ever manner we choose...learn what it is we want to know and have an interest in, and have fun doing it. Certainly my goal is not to develop any enemies, but only to share some thoughts.

Ramsey
 
Everybody does have great points here....

Here is my suggestion on the subject of unknown steels:

Instead of telling a new maker that they shouldnt use them as they will have a big chance of messing up why dont we make a list of what we have found that different pieces of equipment is,Like most old springs are5160,1080,1095
and allot of plow points are 1080,1084 JD load shafts are 5160,bush hog blades are either 5160 or 1095,old files usually 1095,old lawn mower blades are usually 1095,ball bearings and races are sometimes 52100,etc etc etc...

This will give the begginer a better chance of success,but they need to know that these are just a starting point to beggin there journey in the craft of knifemaking.

If a person is afraid to fail then the craft of knifemaking is not for them,Failure begins with the steel but can happen through all aspects of making a knife,begginer or seasoned veteran will have failures if they push there making ability.

Me personaly have learned more from my mistakes than any writen knowledge has taught me.

Bruce

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Not to be an instigator but i was reading through The complete Encyclopedia of Knives by A.E Hartnick "The first knife that hoyt buck made in 1902 (when files were good steel) from an old file was the model for the model 119 special"

Another maker Simeon Jurkijevic (Australia) has recieved some noteriety from using "junk steel".
I have to say in my defense I am learning alot about metalurgy, The HT process and just in general, forging steel right now. if it werent for the free scrap's and odds and ends i wouldnt be doing this.To me it's not to attractive to waste money on new known steel as cheap as it may be. As someone new to this craft I probably know less than some of you journeymen + makers forgot!! In the end I think doing it for the sentiment,the cost and the mystique all roads lead to the same path ....making knives thats why we're all here.
 
The problem is shown in your post....
"either 5160 or 1095
are5160,1080,1095
sometimes 52100
usually 1095"

That is a lot of maybes.
If the newbie HTs the 1095 as 5160 it won't harden properly.
What if it isn't one of those "sometimes"?
What if this isn't the day that "usually" happens?
5160?,1080?,1095? which one do I pick?All are different.

"This will give the beginner a better chance of success"

How is guessing (remember,we are talking a newbie) going to teach him/her anything,and make success more likely?

"learned more from my mistakes "

I am sure that a lot of makers learned this way.I am also sure most would have preferred learning by success rather than failure.
(I'm not sure if Ramsey's doctor analogy wouldn't stand up here.I don't suspect most people would want the doctor who had learned to do the surgery by making lots of mistakes.)

Don't get me wrong,Bruce,I agree that experimenting with different steels and sources gains a lot of knowledge.I just don't think the average Newbie has enough experience to understand what he is doing with "mystery" steel.
Too many variables is not controlled learning.If that was so they would train the Army by giving them all a bunch of bullets and letting them go out and shoot at anything they felt like.Some would become expert marksmen,I'm sure.Others would become casualties.
 
I think bladesmth has put it best. mostly what I was trying to say. ramsey, you are exactly right. I did not say inferior. Let me put this another way. It is a competent steel. It is NOT a superior steel. As to your other comments. Lets not get in to a stock removal vs, forging debate. We will both make a lot of enemy's this way. I'm sure we both have strong opinions. I have done both for years, and have very strong opinions on the subject. Our goal should be to help the young man, not confuse him futher. Mike
 
That was just a idea to give the newbie a place to start,not a certain thing....

Ok I learned on my own with no one to teach me or tell me what steel I had and so I had to figure out what worked and what didnt....I didnt quit and still like using a unknown steel every now and then just to play with the heat treat and see what I can do with that steel..Guess I am wrong thinking like this,but it didnt stop me....

Guess all I gotta say now is use what ya got or can afford do it the best you possiably can at that present moment in time and keep learning.If ya dont want to go through the learning curve of figuring out heat treat then stay with the known steels and do the best possiable knife you can at that time.If you want to or dont mind the learning curve then GO FOR IT with the UNKNOWN STEELS....

The Newbie wishing to use Unknown steels and wants some help is more than welcome to email me or call me on the phone for all the help I am possiably capable of giving them.If you use known steel and have a question the same goes for you.I dont care if ya forge or grind.We all make knives and use many different methodes to do this...

How about this break down:
Unknown steel--quench by eye--temper by eye------Least chance of success
Unknown steel--quench with magnet as quide--temper in a kitchen type oven----little better chance for success
Known steel--quench with magnet guide--temper in kitchen type oven-------a little bit of a greater chance for success
Known steel--controlled electric HT oven for quench--controlled electric HT oven for temper------Much greater chance for success
Known steel--salt pot for quench--salt pot for temper--almost the best chance of success
Known steel--send off for Proffessional heat treat--------The greatest chance of success

Some of these may have different variables as using a coal fire as apposed to a gas fire can give different results of control and forging a steel as opposed to just using it as it comes from the factory will also have a few different variables...

No matter what steel you use known or unknown many factors can come about so if you plan on doing your own heat treat you better learn how to check the steel and fix any problems that may happen...I have heard many times of someone getting sent the wrong steel in a order,and sometimes this doesnt get found out until the steel is cut,ground and heat treated..Try having a batch proffessionally heat treated and have it come back wrong,it isnt anyones fault but the person that shipped the wrong stuff,but you are out the money for the steel and the heat treat costs plus the time and other supplies used plus then you have to wait for a new batch to be shipped and the heat treat time to wait for also...I know this doesnt happen allot but for a man that knows how to test a unknown steel he can correct the problem,but a novice that only goes by what is told to do for the one steel wont know what to do but wait and start over again.


now,Scagel didnt use any thing but a forge and possiably a magnet to quench his known steel and also tempered his blades in the forge by eye (He knew what he was doing and was good at it)

Randall quenched his known steel with a magnet guide and a kitchen oven for the temper (Seen any of his stuff fail)
Both Make/Made highly prized knives and I have never heard a bad word about any of there knives(someone else might have but not me)

So a New maker will have to choose for themselves what path they want to take to make that dream knife and find there own Excaliber,this will have to be chosen on there own and not much any of the rest of us has to say will change there mind...experimentation is how all knives were developed from the very first sharpened rock,and someone else tried something else to make it better(From a unknown way of working the material stand point)so on and so on till we have reached the knives of today,please dont tell me that we are at the end of the knifemaking journey and have created the finest knives this world will ever see,I hope some new maker will stumble upon the next greatest steel that sets the industry on a whole new journey..I believe that if we tell a few new guys that they cant use something it will only fuel there fire to prove us wrong.I believe the industry is just waiting for the next Bill Moran or Bob Loveless to concer some new aspect of knifemaking that makes everybodys head turn the first time they show up somewhere with it.

Again,Just my 2 cents worth,
Final reply...
Bruce

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The Soul of the Knife begins in the FIRE !!!!!!!
 
Experimenting and all that is alright I suppose but would anyone make a Journeyman or Mastersmith test knife using an "unknown steel"?

We do what works for us. Personally, I don't use any steel that I don't know for sure what it is. Heck, I can screw things up enough on my own and I need all the help I can get. I don't need another fly in the ointment.

After we do things awhile, we stick with what works for us. I always use the same quenchant for the same steel, I have it the same temperature, I bring the blade up to the same temperature...

After we learn our own methods, we seldom stray.

After a while, as we gain a little experience, we do things a certain way that works for us...and it may not work for everyone.

One size does not fit all...but we still end up with a sharp pointed thingy.

Craig
 
C L I for one would love that as a test for my JS or MS blades,puts another variable in the making of a JS or MS shows that the smith is a master of steel not just one kind steel.Damascus can all be made from the same 2 steels and come out with a different carbon contenet by different makers.Just variables that happen when forging.

Bruce

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The Soul of the knife begins in the FIRE !!!!!!!!!!!!
 
its not like this arguement hasn't been rehashed many times... ... buy steel or salvage? very similar to the divide between the "have's" and the " have nots"


... still ..... it boils down to .." if you can make a good knife of it "

although 5160 is a common steel, it still make an excellent blade steel when heat treated right.. ... and i still don't see the problem with an unknown steel, if you take some steps to figure out what you've got and whether it would be worth forging into a blade..
 
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