Nail Polish, Tempering... A Coating?

Z

Zombie_Steel

Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
21
so been reading about vinegar and mustard for etching knives and using nail polish to coat your knife so to protect the knife edge from the etching. so, i decided to try an experiment and temper the blade in my oven with the nail polish.... and something interesting happened.

i painted the letters "ZS" on the blade and baked it. when i took the knife out it had a nice even straw color on the tank and body of the knife and a purple/blue color on the blade. however, where the nail polish was turned black. smooth. like it was absorbed into the pores of the blade like a coating.

so is that what it did? could this be a poor man's coating? will it help prevent rusting?
 
Nail polish is basically an acrylic resin, so it probably burnt and baked into the pores of the steel. I don't know what the durability would be, but it sounds pretty interesting. I know you can use nail polish as a resist when acid etching...Hmmm.
 
It is probably just a surface feature from the burned polish. Just like the purple and straw colors, it should come off when you sand down the blade post HT.
 
Not to mention the nasty fumes in your over from burning up the nail polish, it probably is nothing more than a charred spot on the surface.

-X
 
what temperature did you bake your knife at? its possible you ruined the heat treat. what kind of knife was it?
 
Purple blue may have been a bit hot in the tempering process. What was the steel and what was the tempering temp?
 
The colors on a blade from a tempering oven can be like a peacock. I put no value in assessing temperature by them.
 
Zombie_Steel said:
...so, i decided to try an experiment and temper the blade in my oven with the nail polish....
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Why? :confused:

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? We can help you, and we want to help you. But we need to know what you're working with and what you're trying to do. So far, you're all over the map.

Zombie_Steel said:
could this be a poor man's coating? will it help prevent rusting?
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No. No.

Slow down and start from the beginning. Please.
 
james terrio said:
Why? :confused:

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? We can help you, and we want to help you. But we need to know what you're working with and what you're trying to do. So far, you're all over the map.



No. No.

Slow down and start from the beginning. Please.
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I read you other post, and unless you learned something between now and then I still think you are misinformed on the WHOLE HT process - particularly the meaning of "tempering" and missing the austenesation / quench
 
ok. lots of questions. i will do my best. i don't have pics as of yet.

the kind of steel i am using not totally sure, it is a carbon steel and i believe its a high carbon, it was one half of a pair of bolt cutters. as for the temp i tempered at... first it was 450 degrees but didn't see the straw color i was looking for so i upped it to 500. each was for an hour.

as for what i am trying to accomplish is simple, two things. 1) a way to protect the blade better for rusting. (sense nail polish is an acrylic resin as was said, that should give much more protection then not having it i would assume). 2) a way of coloring the blade black cheaply. but i also want it to look good as well. if it works the bottle of polish was just .97¢. can't beat that!

12345678910 -- you could be right. there is A LOT to learn about HT and tempering. what temp for what metal. it really is enough to make your head spin! but i am trying to learn as best i can. but not exactly knowing what metal i am using i have to rely on color of the metal. as i understand it straw coloring is what you really like to see but also purple/blue is at the upper level of the tempering spectrum. or at least for 1095 steel.

if anyone has a temp/color chart for differant carbon steels i would love to get that from you!
 
I think what the count means is that you seem to be missing the critical part or the HT process. Tempering refers to the low heat cycle that is used to bring hardness down and give the steel some toughness back. This is done AFTER the austentizing process which is the hardening cycle. The hardening happens when steel is heated to a specific temp based on steel type, usually 1450 degrees or higher, held for a specified time at that temp, then rapidly cooled at a specific rate. This causes chemical and physical changes in the steel and is when the steel gets hard. After this stage the steel is about as hard as possible but also very brittle. The tempering is done after this to soften the steel back to the desired hardness.
 
Zombie_Steel said:
ok. lots of questions. i will do my best. i don't have pics as of yet.

the kind of steel i am using not totally sure, it is a carbon steel and i believe its a high carbon, it was one half of a pair of bolt cutters. as for the temp i tempered at... first it was 450 degrees but didn't see the straw color i was looking for so i upped it to 500. each was for an hour.

as for what i am trying to accomplish is simple, two things. 1) a way to protect the blade better for rusting. (sense nail polish is an acrylic resin as was said, that should give much more protection then not having it i would assume). 2) a way of coloring the blade black cheaply. but i also want it to look good as well. if it works the bottle of polish was just .97¢. can't beat that!

12345678910 -- you could be right. there is A LOT to learn about HT and tempering. what temp for what metal. it really is enough to make your head spin! but i am trying to learn as best i can. but not exactly knowing what metal i am using i have to rely on color of the metal. as i understand it straw coloring is what you really like to see but also purple/blue is at the upper level of the tempering spectrum. or at least for 1095 steel.

if anyone has a temp/color chart for differant carbon steels i would love to get that from you!
Click to expand...

Grayzer86 said:
I think what the count means is that you seem to be missing the critical part or the HT process. Tempering refers to the low heat cycle that is used to bring hardness down and give the steel some toughness back. This is done AFTER the austentizing process which is the hardening cycle. The hardening happens when steel is heated to a specific temp based on steel type, usually 1450 degrees or higher, held for a specified time at that temp, then rapidly cooled at a specific rate. This causes chemical and physical changes in the steel and is when the steel gets hard. After this stage the steel is about as hard as possible but also very brittle. The tempering is done after this to soften the steel back to the desired hardness.
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Exaxtly, have a look at this

Especially the HT video

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1074288-Shop-Setup-101?p=12258065#post12258065


Oxidation colours mean nothing.
rely on the temp control in your kitchen stove instead.

I think you may be missing the whole red hot part.
 
yes i do know that. i did not do that with this knife as i am using it as a test bed to do some experimenting and a untility knife around the garage. for what i am going to be using it for it will be fine. now if i was going to make it as best i could then i would to the HT in my forge and the tempering in my oven. and i really hope that did not come off cocky. by no means do i mean it that way and i very much appreciate all the help you guys are giving me and i love it! so please feel free to call me on what ever you think i need to know.

UPDATE -- well i decided to try an experiment with the nail polish and paint the whole knife. first i tried it at 325 degrees and the polish didn't burn. so turned it up to 500. that worked. quenched it and washed it off. then took it to my garage ("shop") to polish out the ruff thicker spots of polish. used 1200 grit wet/dry sandpaper with some WD40..... what do you think happened? the nail polish came right off to the steel below. it would appear that nail polish and oil based (or at least WD40) takes off nail polish like a hungry shark eating a tuna!

OPINION -- this is not a suitable solution to coat/color the blade and protect it from rust. i believe it would be fine so long as you just didn't polish your knife. it didn't come off with a wet paper towel even with scrubbing. but ad a bit of WD40 and paper towel, and it starts to come over. ad the sand paper no matter the grit, and it comes off. can't sell a knife with a coating like that.

even though my experiment failed, i loved the result! i learned a lot! i like to try and find easy, cheep, or DIY solutions to problems and getting any result is always fun. i have to assume that i am not the only one that has tried or thought of trying nail polish in this fashion. and if not then someone after me might think to try it and at least my experience can help him.

again guys thank so much for your help! with your help i have learned a great deal more then would have thought. i like this site! now i a going to post another thread about metal. hope i can get some good info there as well. so far you guys haven't disappointed!
 
james terrio said:
Why? :confused:

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? We can help you, and we want to help you. But we need to know what you're working with and what you're trying to do. So far, you're all over the map.

^^ This is my new signature. I love it !! Great advice to think of before starting a project.
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To prevent rust on knife blades they have a great product that is cheap and available almost anywhere.....it is called oil.
A can of spray paint would probably be better than fingernail polish, but neither is made as a blade coating. With either one, if you burn it up in the oven...it isn't protecting anything anymore.

You really need to do some reading and learn about how a knife is made and hardened. The color tempering you are referring to is a procedure used for tools and things from 100 years ago for drawing a temper with a torch. It is not intended for judging temper in an oven, and no one recommends that as a way to do knife tempering today. It is about as poor a system as you can get.



"....yes i do know that. i did not do that with this knife as i am using it as a test bed to do some experimenting and a untility knife around the garage. for what i am going to be using it for it will be fine. now if i was going to make it as best i could then i would to the HT in my forge and the tempering in my oven. and i really hope that did not come off cocky. by no means do i mean it that way and i very much appreciate all the help you guys are giving me and i love it! so please feel free to call me on what ever you think i need to know......"

Your comment about this being a personal use shop and test knife and it not needing a good HT makes about as much sense as saying, "Oh, these are my kids, I don't need to put them in safety seats. If I carry someone else's kids in the car, I will use the safety seats."

You ask what we think you need to know....I think you need you need to read more on how to make a knife properly, and how HT works. The stickies are full of that info.
 
zombie_steel, did you read a post i made about using nail polish to protect the edge when putting a patina on a carbon steel blade? that was meant to be temporary protection. i would say that when you baked the blade, the nail polish burned off and just left a residue that will come off when you wipe the blade down with oil.

before starting any new threads, you might find out what you are looking for by searching the forum, reading the stickies at the top of the page in shop talk and this one by joe talmadge http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/368828-Steel-FAQ
 
richard j said:
zombie_steel, did you read a post i made about using nail polish to protect the edge when putting a patina on a carbon steel blade? that was meant to be temporary protection. i would say that when you baked the blade, the nail polish burned off and just left a residue that will come off when you wipe the blade down with oil.
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yes i did read about what you said regarding nail polish to protect the edge from a patina. i did know about that and just decided to see what happened if the polish was baked. thanks for that.
 
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