Name that microstructure

O.K. blades are in the temper, so I have a short break.

Mete! :D I got a good chuckle out of your quick catching of #4, you are absolutely right, and I did intentionally try create that one in order to show what it is.

Another hint: There are several of the images that exhibit what Mete is getting at here.

I have to do a little more work in the shop, but tonight while I am between tempering cycles, I will go ahead and spill the beans as far as my observations go.
 
I am going to have a stab at this....

1. Steel that has been normalised to refine the grain .. fine pearlite?

2. Steel that has been annealed..course pearlite?

3. I have no idea what that black hole is unless its an impurity or a hole?

4. Steel that has been grossly overheated and blown the grain structure?

5. Martensite

6. Steel, over heated, and not normalised/annealed then quench hardened where there is some martensite but large grain growth?

:)
 
Now for some details, but first I would like to stress that my intentions were not to stump anybody, nor intimidate. Some of us have seen images like this in books but they may not have caught our interest, I thought these were different because they were captured by a knifemaker, in a steel commonly used by many of us, from a bar that a few knives have already been made using some of the techniques that developed the effects presented. I thought it could kind of bring it to a more personal level for us. Some of the things are indeed present in our blades.

O.K, here we go:

#1 is a sample of 1095 steel that was heated to approximately 1800F (hoping to grow the grain for better viewing) and then cooled to 1100F. and held for 15 minutes before quenching. This first image is not close enough to make out the pearlite, but it is there. What I was really surprised by was the amount of pro-eutectoid cementite (iron carbide in excess of .83% carbon) that precipitated in the grain boundaries. This is why there is a wide white outline to the prior austenite grains. This is a bad thing! Cementite is very brittle stuff and fracturing tends to occur following the grain boundaries, so you know what that means for toughness. You can see why it would be very important to completely re-austenitize this steel and dissolve this stuff before hardening.

#2 is the same sample at high enough magnification for us to see the lamellar nature of the pearlite. What is particularly cool is where it is oriented. You will notice the most prominent zones of it in a delta configuration starting at a corner. This is a nice illustration of the way pearlite likes to nucleate from the intersections of grain boundaries. As a stringer of high concentrated carbide forms it depletes the austenite to either side until it forms bands of ferrite, which prompts another thread of high carbon and so on until we get this layered lamellar effect. Cool, isn’t it? :D

#3 is the edge of the same piece. To be honest the dark patch is more of a red herring, since I believe it is a dried bit of oil that got stuck the steel, sorry. What I really wanted to illustrate here was how the grain boundary pro-eutectoid cementite just sort of vanishes before it reaches the outer surface. Why is this?... The hint that it was not heated in something like my salts give it away, and mete spotted it right away. Decarb! :eek: We don’t have any pro-eutectoid cementite near the surface because there is not enough carbon left there to make it.

#4 is actually what mete spotted, I am sure in his job this stuff was his sworn enemy when working with high carbon steel. I was happy to get such interesting and pronounced patches of pro-eutectoid ferrite, from the decarburization. This is actually steel so depleted of carbon that it can’t form carbide, it can’t even form pearlite, since that requires the eutectoid (.83% carbon) all it has left is mostly iron (ferrite).

#5 Now here we have something we are all more familiar with wanting. This is a piece of 1095 quenched in water. For photography reasons I etched it much darker, since martensite is quite white under the microscope. Arcing across the top of the frame is a micro-crack from the water quench, please note that this crack was not visible to the naked eye before the sample was prepped. This makes it very clear why a quench must be fast enough yet not too fast, not all quench damage makes itself known. Also note how the crack followed the grain boundaries so well. Without the crack you could not make out those boundaries, since all that carbide has been used up to make the martensite. If one is very good (and lucky ) they may be able to make out the previous boundaries due to the orientation of the martensite needles, since they tend to nucleate out from the grain boundaries when they form.

#6 is the same hardened sample at the edge to once again show the effects of decarb. Notice how the nice little needles just sort of peter out and you get those big islands of ferritic material. If this was at you knife's edge how well would it keep cutting? You would need to get rid of that skin of ferrite before you could start getting top performance out of it.

O.K mete, feel free to dive in now; I would like to get your input on what else there may be there.
 
Thanks for the photos Kevin. It's really good to be able to actually see what structures happen when we heat treat certain ways. At this point I'll stick just to #4. Cutting tools require carbon to strengthen the matrix and provide carbides to give wear resistance. We can lose some carbon in forging and heat treatment .Above the critical decarb occurs and is a time and temperature dependant thing.When decarb occurs we have a weaker matrix and no carbides for wear resistance . This is one of the reasons I have questioned the common practice of annealing normalizing and hardening three times each. Each time you heat it above critical you might lose carbon .When a blade maker asks why his blade soft decarb might be the reason.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
#6 is the same hardened sample at the edge to once again show the effects of decarb. Notice how the nice little needles just sort of peter out and you get those big islands of ferritic material. If this was at you knife's edge how well would it keep cutting? You would need to get rid of that skin of ferrite before you could start getting top performance out of it.
.

In terms of thickness, how much of the edge or skin would have to be ground away on that sample to get rid of that ferrite?

Interesting thread.

Thanks.
 
The ammount you get varies greatly, and on this one sample there were many unknown factors affecting it since the ammount of decarb varied greatly across the surface of that piece. I had to look around a bit to find that ferrite in #4. What can be safely said is that if you have heated steel above critical without total control over the atmosphere, you do have it to some degree. It may be in patches, it may be an incredibly thin skin of it, but my observations have shown that it is there. Without going to an effort to expose it, you can't easily see decarb, you can't smell it, you can't taste it (well I have never tried that, to be honest), so I think it is rash for anybody who does not have that controlled atmosphere to say they don't have the problem,we all have the problem. I even had a friend come to my shop to have me examine some pieces of his work that he was heating in an foil envelope filled with bone charcoal to avoid decarb. When I got to the edges of his samples what do you suppose I found? Annoying little flecks of silvery white. Could it have been carbide instead? Perhaps, if the hardness readings had not been lower than expected:( .

I have never been good at producing accurate numbers from looking at a magnified image on a computer screen, particularly after my camera has done its zooming and I have messed it up in Photoshop, but I have had many others offer estimates of that nature rather quickly, perhaps someone that is skilled in that area can give the .001" distance to those needles from the surface.
 
Thanks Kevin,

I work with steel alot, and have never had a chance
to see it like this. You are a welth of knowledge,
other then knife making what do you do or what
did you do before? anyway Thanks again for the
lesson.

Zoo
 
Kevin ,sample prep -I know you're new at this but to look at an edge it's impossible to not round off the edge when polishing unless the edge is supported. You can mount the sample in plastic or better , hard chrome plate the sample .#6 would be much easier to understand with a flat edge.....I meant to add on my last post a point about blades.The edge ,being thin, has problems .It's easy to overheat and more than one maker has broken off the tip because of large grain and brittleness from overheating .It is also easy to decarb since you are losing carbon from both sides.Leave enough meat on the edge to make sure you grind off the decarb. ..BTW I have been asked about using a low carbon steel and carburizing the blade .One reason not to try is that control of carbon content is very difficult with that thin edge . In other words if you carburize a block of steel with a 90 degree corner, if you get say .030" case depth on the flat ,the corner will have a deeper case .And the reverse for decarb.
 
mete, believe me, I am painfully aware of the fact that I am not mounting these pieces in a resin. Some of the images I have of edges are the result of 6 photos taken at a different focus and then spliced together with Photoshop in order to give the total view :barf:. When I sell a few more blades I am going to invest in a horizontal disk with micron abrasives, right now the use of resins would clog my papers and be a real headache, but you are correct- it is impossible not to round those edges without a mounting. But to be honest I was quite surpised at the quality of some of those images considering my crude equipment. I loved that cementite in the grain boundaries, I never expected to have such a vibrant image of an issue I have warned so many about. And time in the etch really plays a role as to whether you will get something like that to show. I repolished several times and played with the duration a bit to get it to show nicely.
 
ZOO said:
Thanks Kevin,

I work with steel alot, and have never had a chance
to see it like this. You are a welth of knowledge,
other then knife making what do you do or what
did you do before? anyway Thanks again for the
lesson.

Zoo

Knifemaking is really all I have ever done, just not always professionally, I worked in structural iron work (mostly yard man) long enough to realize that if I could make living with knives I should do it and never look back.

In school I was the strange kid that nobody talked to, but aced all the science tests and read very odd books. "My name is Kevin, I am a geek, it has been 1 week since my last ASM technical manual ;) " . To be honest, what you see here is the result of what some could call an obsession that was spawned by all the myths and missinformation in the knifemaking field. I tended to retain all that boring science stuff from school and an awful lot of what I was hearing and reading about bladesmithing just didn't jive with what I knew. When something catches my interest I will pursue it relentlessly to the exclusion of other things, until it, or I, am exhausted (a trait that drove my teachers crazy ;) ). Today I say I hate B.S. and hype, but in truth I love it, since it is my primary motivation to grabbing the next metallurgical text.

All of my studies have only revealed how ignorant I still am, and how complex and never ending this whole "heating and working steel" thing really is. Anybody confident enough to claim they have it all figured out is truly a fool.
 
Here is a bonus image, I find it quite fascinating. I cannot remember the condition of the steel it was from, but I do know it was 1095. There are some very interesting effects here. I have my hunches as to what I was seeing here, but does anybody have any input as to what esle may be seen?:
9.jpg


I do remember that the steel was austenitized using an O/A torch and was quenched, so the is at least some martensite, even though the magnification is not great enough to see needles. The tan patches are the martensite.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Here is a bonus image, I find it quite fascinating. I cannot remember the condition of the steel it was from, but I do know it was 1095. There are some very interesting effects here. I have my hunches as to what I was seeing here, but does anybody have any input as to what esle may be seen?:
9.jpg


I do remember that the steel was austenitized using an O/A torch and was quenched, so the is at least some martensite, even though the magnification is not great enough to see needles. The tan patches are the martensite.

That one looks like Dairy Queen's newest Blizzard drink! ;) :D
 
I do hope they are supposed to be chocolate, otherwise the colors wouldn't be very appetizing :barf:

Outside of revolting deserts, my take on this image was that it almost had to be from incomplete austenization. There are only patches of martensite in a sea of very fine pearlitic to spheroidal structures. What I found most fascinating was the large silvery beads, which I believe to be enormous spheroidal carbides left over from incomplete austenization of the former constituents. Heating to a temp insufficient to get austenite results in the carbides, that were very fine products such as bainite, or particularly martensite, pooling up into the little balls that we get in spheroidizing.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Here is a bonus image, I find it quite fascinating. I cannot remember the condition of the steel it was from, but I do know it was 1095. There are some very interesting effects here. I have my hunches as to what I was seeing here, but does anybody have any input as to what esle may be seen?:
9.jpg


I do remember that the steel was austenitized using an O/A torch and was quenched, so the is at least some martensite, even though the magnification is not great enough to see needles. The tan patches are the martensite.

if you ask me it kind of looks like looking into my dip bucket :eek: :D
 
IF that is the case then you may the most interesting quench recipe of us all Dan ;) . BUt you probably mean the bucket for cooling your blade during grinding. I have had so many people see the slack tub in my forge and imediately tell me a story about the doctors in the old days telling folks with anemia to go drink a cup of water from the blacksmiths slack tub, I always just chuckle and let them know in no uncertain terms that that is the last thin they wnt to do in my shop unless they want to have to go to the doctor ;) . In the old days all the smiths had in their shop was iron coal and water, times have changed :D .
 
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