NASA Bushcraft; thoughts on design

dogrunner said:
Other than aesthetics (and beauty is in the eye of the beholder anyway), why would you spec a knife based on the blade being longer than the handle?
For most purposes (i.e. not a sword where balance really comes into play), the blade and handle do separate jobs. One is for holding on to, the other for cutting.
I think a 4-4.5" handle is plenty (for my hand size), but short blades can be really useful for some jobs (think paring knife for kitchen knives) and some jobs need long blades (chefs knife). But my hand is still the same size. Unless for weight balance, or if hand position is really different, why not use the same size handle?
Regarding the BC knife - I think 4" is an excellent choice for an all-purpose outdoors knife whose primary purpose is cutting things (as opposed to chopping like a machete). 5" is ok but getting to be less convenient to carry and the convenience goes down as the length goes up from there.

I'd love an S90V blade for this application. I have 2 folders that hold an edge great and cut great for a long time. I'd give 4V a try too - better edge holding than 3V, according to Mike Stewart/Bark River.
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I think for some applications a shorter is sometimes better. However, if we are talking a bushcraft knife a longer blade to handle ratio helps with chopping.
 
Interesting ideas about the steels. I hadn't thought about 3V as I assumed that a stainless would be better for a more general knife. While I think I would be happy with 3V for myself most of the time, I would be happier still if this project was fully stainless. Anyone got any advances on a stainless that holds a good fine edge, rather than the usual situation where they hold a dull toothy edge for ages?
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CPM-154 or RWL-34 would be perfect if you want a fine edged stainless. S90V can get wicked sharp, but you might have a hard time fixing it up when it DOES get dull. Granted, I've borrowed my friend's Southfork for 2 weeks at a time, and it never went dull on me then, so I don't think it's a big concern. The last fine edged stainless I can think of is CTS-204P, which is the same steel used in the Southard. That stuff is capable of taking a damn near vorpal edge and holding it for a DAMN long time. Pretty tough to, IIRC.

Some have suggested 3V, but if this knife is made in 3V/pretty much any other non-stainless..... I can tell you right now I'm not gonna buy it if that happens. I do not like carbon and tool steels, I like high end stainless. I'd prefer to not worry about my knife rusting on my hip, or being put away wet for days at a time.

Finally, I second the name "SpaceCraft" It has a nice ring to it.
 
I would like to see this blade at around 4". I don't see the need for any longer, its not going to be a chopper.
 
JoHnYKwSt said:
I would like to see this blade at around 4". I don't see the need for any longer, its not going to be a chopper.
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+1
bushcrafter is not a chopper. Batoning with a 4" blade works ok, adding an inch does not improve that function much. 4" is a good size for this knife IMO.
 
I said 5" because of the aesthetics.
But keep in mind it's easier to use a bigger blade for smaller tasks than a smaller blade for bigger tasks.

Some seem to prefer stainless because carbon steel could stain, that for me is also a matter of aesthetics. (If you are a knifenut, taking care for your knife doesn't seem a hard job)
Some seem to prefer less sharping (but harder wen needed) than less risk of chipping or even breaking a knife in outdoor conditions.

There are always trade-offs.
The serrata for example is a beautiful knife and the casted 440C keeps a phenomenal toothy edge.
It's an excellent knife for kitchen applications but the casting is to brittle to use in the woods.

For an outdoor knife I wouldn't go for S90V, and surely never do some batoning with
 
Vanadis 4 extra also keeps a great edge but is at the same time very tough.

Here a "review" of a vanadis knife of 61 HRC
 
Hi Chris,

I'm not stuck on S90. It was a thought at the time off the original creation. I think I would prefer a stainless, but I'm open to discussion on length and steel.

s
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Chris,

I'm not stuck on S90. It was a thought at the time off the original creation. I think I would prefer a stainless, but I'm open to discussion on length and steel.

s
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+1 :thumbup: As we all noted in the other thread that started this one, this handle shape on the bushcraft model is awesome, and the goal would be to keep this handle shape, and use a stainless steel with a FFG, for general cutting tasks. Blade shape to be determined! I noted the alloy of S90V, because it was part of the quote from Sal. This handle shape could be the basis for a complete line of awesome blade shapes and steel alloys suited for various purposes. Lets get this one done, and then keep going.
Thanks for your continued support Sal! :)
 
Neo said:
I said 5" because of the aesthetics.
But keep in mind it's easier to use a bigger blade for smaller tasks than a smaller blade for bigger tasks.
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Agreed, but there is a limit to the blade size I will carry for a routine outing. I have plenty of big blades but rarely carry them unless I know I will need one. Everyone will do what they think works for them, but there are few jobs that a 4" blade is NOT up for, and it is a very convenient size fixed blade to carry.
As Clay indicated, the intended purpose will dictate the design and it sounded to me like this was a general purpose outdoor knife. I have never used a knife to baton, other than for fun. But any blade could be used for that job in an emergency. If I know in advance I need to chop or split branches that would be a challenge to a smaller blade, I'm bring my GB wildlife hatchet - light and much more effective than a knife.


Neo said:
Some seem to prefer stainless because carbon steel could stain, that for me is also a matter of aesthetics. (If you are a knifenut, taking care for your knife doesn't seem a hard job)
Some seem to prefer less sharping (but harder wen needed) than less risk of chipping or even breaking a knife in outdoor conditions.
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Agree on both counts - non-stainless is not my first concern, nor is sharpening on random rocks.

Neo said:
There are always trade-offs.
The serrata for example is a beautiful knife and the casted 440C keeps a phenomenal toothy edge.
It's an excellent knife for kitchen applications but the casting is to brittle to use in the woods.

For an outdoor knife I wouldn't go for S90V, and surely never do some batoning with
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I assume you do not mean this literally (that S90V should only be used for indoor knives ;), kitchen knives??). I really like S90V for its phenomenal edge-holding. My S90V paramilitary is my EDC chore knife around the farm and property. I do not plan any batoning (its a folder anyway), but it has handled all sorts of *cutting* jobs, which is what I want a knife to do. I also have 3V knives that are plenty tough, but the S90V is a better cutter (blade profile has a lot to do with that).

But Clay, Sal and others will figure out something worthwhile and I just hope I can afford it :)
 
DavidZ said:
This handle shape could be the basis for a complete line of awesome blade shapes and steel alloys suited for various purposes. :)
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I've been thinking of blade length more and more - keep it at 4inches for "general bushcraft" and you already have the bushcraft. It is a well designed and though out blade, so changing it to FFG and supersteel may not improve it much. BUT - keep the handle and change the blade - then you have something new and special. Kinda like the sage or chaparral series - keeping the good part constant, and making changes (not that O1 and the current shape are not good).
 
I think M390/CTS-204P would be a great steel for this application. Stainless, fairly easy to sharpen, reasonably tough, takes a great edge and holds it for a damn long time. My favorite knife is an M390 para 2 and I love the way that steel just works and works and keeps on working. I would also be happy with CTS-XHP or S35VN as a couple of fairly tough stainless steel choices with decent edge retention, but an M390 FFG Bushcrafter would be awesome.
 
foofie said:
I've been thinking of blade length more and more - keep it at 4inches for "general bushcraft" and you already have the bushcraft. It is a well designed and though out blade, so changing it to FFG and supersteel may not improve it much. BUT - keep the handle and change the blade - then you have something new and special. Kinda like the sage or chaparral series - keeping the good part constant, and making changes (not that O1 and the current shape are not good).
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This is exactly what I was thinking.
 
The reason I like high carbide steels like S90v is because they continue cutting even when dull. No stainless is really going to take an edge on a rock. Not unless it's very special rocks. That being said something that has plenty of vanadium fits the bill. I'd suggest putting a small diamond fixture on or in the sheath for real sharpening, not just mangling up the knife.

I question which high carbide steel has the toughness desired? How much toughness is required? That's the place to begin.

Make the steel something like 440C and you limit your market IMO. Sex it up some. I've tried most stainless steels from Inox to CTS B75 and Lohmann Niolux but I haven't tried cast 440C. If it is different enough then include it in the ideas . Hopefully it is tougher than regular 440C too.

As far as names I'd not step on government funded agencies without signed legal papers giving me permission. Maybe something more generic like "millennium", or "Eons", or "Aeons" or something. :)

Personally I loved the O-1 Bushcrafters size, blade length, grip size and everything. I wouldn't change much. I would suggest the market should be aimed at a bigger target than just Bushcrafters. I buy knives but don't do too much outside stuff anymore as I'm not getting paid too any longer. I've gave up enough luxuries in my life and slept in rain and sleet with Korean war/WW2 era gear. Not Winter gear either. Tapping into the current runaway survival market should also be considered being targeted as you have a knife that Joe Suburban Home can pack in a box and forget about it for years. Boating kits as well.

Maybe think about a Serrated H1 blade as that stuff cuts well , but doesn't corrode.

Maybe not for me like something with S90V, CTS B75, CTS XHP, or M390/CTS 204P/20CV, S35. I'm sure Sal probably has real CHARPY, lateral, and CATRA numbers in the lab to help decide. Personally I like S90V for it's devouring ( evil) vanadium carbide edge and don't think super thin edges are necessary or desirable for this type knife.

Joe
 
The original Bushcraft seems to cover most outdoor activities fine. I personally would buy another one of those if a natural handle material was used again. My suggestion for your new venture would be a saber convex in VG10. However, why wouldnt a simple old-school stainless like 440C work for this application? With an excellent blade geo and HT this knife would perform wicked. Also cost could be lower.
 
The idea behind the NASA Bushcraft was not necessarily another knife for bushcraft as much as it is to utilize the great ergonomic handle as a vehicle for comfortably using high tech steel like S90V. The Southfork is a great slicer in S90V, but for me the blade is a little thin and I prefer more height. Maybe a profile like a high saber grind.
 
"the jobs it would be put to would be very similar; carving wood, light baton cutting and splitting, food slicing, shaving fire wood, and occasional small game prep. Not much slicing of really abrasive material like rope, cardboard, or bear skin!" Sounds to me that "bushcraft is what is intended here. I grew up and live in farm country/woodland so our definitions may be different brother. Judging by your username you did too!
 
Thanks for all the advice and views. I have about a dozen blade profiles sketched out and am playing around with various knives that I have that have similar profiles. The field is narrowing down.

After a lot of thought I want to keep the 4" length rather than try stretching to 5". I have made and used 5" blades and have liked them for some things, and not for others, but the decider is that the things I liked about using them do not fit well with the Spyderco handle. The handle was meant for use with the shorter blade and I think it better to stick to that.

I am also reading all I can about the new crop of high spec steels that Spyderco have been trialling, but can't say as I have a firm favourite yet. I know that dentritic 440C is out, though. Just not strong enough in the stock thickness we will use (A warning was made some years ago not to baton a Serrata as it would cause serious damage). Sharpening on a rock has never been a design driver for me, so not worried about it here. There are a couple of alloys I am leaning towards, S35VN being one, but want to check with Sal's data rather than rely on subjective internet research ;) What I am seeing is that S90V is neither as tough as I would like, nor as corrosion resistant as other options; everything is secondary to wear resistance, which for this knife I do not consider to be the be-all and end all.
 
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