Native: Lock strength?

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safong

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Greetings to fellow Spyderco owners!

I've been following these threads for a long time, and I've decided to post today. I'm interested in buying a Native (love the blade shape and the s30v) and I wonder if anyone knows its lock strength. I know it's a lockback and there aren't liners so the lock strength can't be too great, but I'm still curious, nevertheless.
 
I've been using my Native for the past three or four years as my primary EDC and the lock has never failed me. The lock up is still secure and the action is still smooth. I've never abused my knife but I've used it a lot as a hard use folder and I've got nothing but praise for my Native. The ergonomics are great and the blade cuts like it was an inch longer than it is. As an EDC it's a great knife for a great price.
 
Hello & welcome to the forum. I am fairly new to this hobby, but as far as I have seen so far, IMHO the Native S30V is THE best all-purpose production folder in the world, period, or is at least way up there among the top contenders.

The lockup feels totally secure, it really does feel like an extension of your hand, the shape of the blade makes it amenable to be used for almost anything to a reasonable degree. And it looks much better to me than an Endura, Delica, etc.

Personally, after going through my research on locks, my impression is that the consensus among people on the forums is that Spyderco lockbacks are very, very strong and reliable - certainly in comparison with the much-maligned linerlock. I read on another thread that ythe typical Spyderco lockback (not MBC rated) was suppsoed to be as strong as some tacticalfolders' locks offered by other companies???
 
Thanks for your thoughts guys. I have no doubts about Spyderco quality or the quality of their locks. I don't intend to use my Native as a screwdriver or crowbar so I expect it to last long enough for me to hand it to junior when he's of age (he might then toss it back at me which would be another problem for another thread).
I was just curious about the specific specs in lock strength of the Native. I know Spyderco does extensive testing with their knives so the info has to be out there somewhere (when I was looking up info on the Navigator in this forum, I learned that it's lock strength is in excess of 250 lbs./in or in/lbs?) Again, just curious.
 
Hi Safong. Welcome to the Spyderco forum and thanx for the interest.

Our USA made Native runs in the hi "medium duty" range. about 90+ inch/lbs per inch. The model is also very reliable, which is even more important than ultimate lock strength.

sal
 
Thanks for the info Sal. Much appreciated. I'm surprised that the lock's that strong even with FRN as the handle material.
 
I have one of the early Gin-1 Natives.
I have carried it every day and used it almost every day for ever.
It compares very favorably to a brand new S30V Native I examined at the store, the other day.
I can't imagine how I could put enough of a load on the lock to make it fail.
 
I've got the Native III, which may or may not be of help, but....

The lock is awesome. Very solid, no blade wobble at all. I haven't tried striking the back of the blade against anything yet, but I don't really want to... Such pretty, shiny steel. :)
 
Hi Safong. The FRN contains 33% fiberglass reinforcement.

Hi Ken, We can apply enough force. We can break a Stryder or a Busse in 15 seconds, and get a computer print out of the break with numbers and graphs.

sal
 
Parallax said:
Hello & welcome to the forum. I am fairly new to this hobby, but as far as I have seen so far, IMHO the Native S30V is THE best all-purpose production folder in the world, period, or is at least way up there among the top contenders.
Click to expand...

I feel the same way about the 3D in VG 10. Fantastic knife!
 
Sal,

Do you use a type of FRN that's a different mixture from other makers? Also, would a 50/50 mixture of fiberglass and nylon be stronger or is there a threshold limit?

Sodak,

I've looked at the Native III too. I've read compalints about the tight action and how s30v is generally better than vg10. Nothwithstanding such things, have you had any experience with the s30v Native and compared it to the Native III? I've never considered getting the III till now.
 
get the native s30v, you won't be dissapointed. sadly, i lost my old one, carried it every day for 7 years. i had to replace it, even though i have a military as well as other rather nice tools. s30v is such a great steel and no other knife fits my hand as well.
 
Safong,

I do not have any experience with the S30V from Spyderco. The VG10 has been great. Really takes and holds a good edge, and I love the ergonomics. The action is stiff, but not overly so, and I like it that way. I can still open it easily with one hand. This is one solid little knife that holds like a big knife. It's hard to explain until you hold it...

I've had S30V from other makers, and was disappointed with the edge holding. It was probably heat treat or something, but I've not used any Spyderco's in S30V. Everyone that has one seems to love it, so Spyderco must do it right.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Safong. The FRN contains 33% fiberglass reinforcement.

Hi Ken, We can apply enough force. We can break a Stryder or a Busse in 15 seconds, and get a computer print out of the break with numbers and graphs.

sal
Click to expand...

Mr Glesser,

I asked this very same question in another thread some time ago - namely how does the Chinook II stack up against the almost legendary Stryder. I really cannot imagine any foler stronger than the Chinook, but I was told by others that the Strider is. Are you able to share with us as to how your tests show a head to head contest between the 2 would turn out?
 
Hi Safong. On the FRN, I imagine each manufcturer has their own preferences. We've not analyzed competitors FRN, so I really can't compare.

The USA Native uses Duponts "Zytel" brand of FRN. For that material, 33% is a good balance. There are other FRNs that can take up to 65% fiberglass, but then how brittle becomes the trade off.

For our Seki made FRN, we use a different FRN manufacturer, but the glass % is similar.

Hi Parallax. It's hard to compare knives. My attitude has always been "All good, just different". If you want a blade that can double as a prybar, make it thick and relatively blunt at the tip, but the trade off is cutting performance. We've always opted for the cutting performance end of the spectrum. I carry a prybar for prying. We can build anything so it's a matter of design and preference.

If you want an indestructable handle, again, make it thick with hard materials (dual thick liners, etc), but again, the trade off is weight and bulk. We've always subscribed to the solution of lighter weight and thinner, means you are more likely to carry it and therefore more likely to have it with you when you need it. Knives that pull your pants down will not, IMO, garner long term everyday carry. "No more than necessary, no less than perfect" is the goal at Spyderco.

Locks are the same way. Although some geometries lend themselves to greater ultimate strength. They all must be built accurately to be reliable and strong. Most top name knife companies do that.

I guess it gets down to "what is the offering?"

Some companies offer "weapons oriented" designs, some companies offer "custom designs at affordable prices", others offer "cool". Spyderco offers "reliable high performance" in what we feel are intelligent designs with excellent ergonomics, again for using. Much effort goes into the initial design.

Stryder's offering is indestructable. I'm sure they manufcture with that in mind. They're not new to knives, so imagine they come close to their "offering". We've never broken a Strider, (too much money for a 15 second test). We can get more strength out of a lock-back than a linerlock, because of the nature of the direction of the force.

But in the end, How strong to you want to build it? For us, we pick a lock for the design, set the lock strength standard (light, medium, heavy and extra heavy [MBC]). Then we build to the spec we've selected. We break the pilot, if it's not strong enough to meet spec, we reinforce the part that broke.

If you would like to donate a Stryder, we'll break it, but I must apologise that we would not make the information public.

I know that doesn't asnwer your question, but I hope it brings you closer to understanding.

sal
 
I apologize for contributing to thread drift, here, but Sal's comments about the percentages of fiberglass in FRN raised a question that has lingered in my mind for decades.

When we say fiberglass, what do we mean?
Glass?
Like window glass or bottle glass?

Also, about the nylon in FRN...
I fly helicopters for a living and the helicopter I presently fly (Bell 222) has rotor blades made mostly out of Nomex.
We normally think of Nomex as a fiber, which manufacturers weave into a fabric having fire-resistant qualities (it won't melt or support combustion).
In the case of my rotor blades, they use Nomex because it behaves as a thermoplastic Nylon during the manufacturing process, and thus they can injection mold Nylon into desireable shapes; and, in the case of my rotor blades, into a Nylon honeycomb.
I would guess, then, that the Nylon in Fiberglass Reinforced Nylon corresponds to the Nomex in my rotor blades.
Do I have that right?

-----

Regarding the current version of the Native:

I examined a new S30V Native in a local store.
I could see several small, subtle improvements that made it a better knife than my old GIN-1 Native, but not by much.
If Spyderco had not made those improvements, no one would have noticed; just as no one has noticed that Spyderco has made those improvements.
This says something good about Spyderco.
These guy know about knives; they think about knives; they constantly improve and rethink knives; and, they make improvements where no can see them.
They do it for all the right reasons and we, the users, get a very, very good and reliable knife for an amazingly low price.
Amazingly low.

That said, the next time I cash in some vacation, I intend to buy a new Native and send it to my good friend and knife maker Gene Osborn and have him modify it for me.
On my present GIN-1 Native, I have sharpened the swedge, and now that I have learned to carry and handle it without cutting myself, I really like it that way.
I would like for Gene to put a proper edge on the swedge.
Then, I would like for Gene to make a new set of scales for this knife, in almost exactly the same shape and proportions as the Native (as made by Spyderco), but with enough belly in the handle to cover the sharpened swedge when closed.
I have an old John Greco fixed-blade knife with almost the same exact handle proportions as the Native would have with more belly in the grip, and it feels wonderful in the hand.
I think a Native with this handle and a sharpened swedge would make the smallest and lightest real MBC knife possible: for me, it already has enough lock strength.

There: full circle back to the original topic. :)
 
Fiberglass is literally strands of glass fiber in an epoxy resin. Don't quote me on this, but I think the glass is flexible because its kept in thin strands which means that overall there is less stress on the glass in the middle of the strands. It arrives in woven mats or strands for mixing and makes pretty resilient composites (glass can take a lot of compression so long as you don't scratch it and the strands help spread the force evenly). If I remember correctly, a man made a musketproof vest by lining it with glass powder, travelling the country and betting people that they couldn't kill him if they shot him in the chest (he died only after a disgruntled better shot him in the neck). I'm guessing the nylon component to FRN acts as the binder (and nylon is pretty tough stuff already!) with the glass added to give it additional strength.

As far as steel goes, I think S30V is a superior steel but much more expensive and probably harder to machine too. VG-10 is fine. It holds a nice edge and its not as brittle as S30V. Easy to sharpen (I just sharpened my Native yesterday as it happens). Not sure how it compares to the old GIN-1 Natives though.

As for the lock: whack tested and rock solid. Not the tiniest bit of play.
 
Thanks again everyone for the info. It's nice to know a little more about the knives I want and carry. It's funny how this all started with a Ladybug. I told myself that it was all the knife I needed. Then I went camping and wished I had something a little beefier. That's when I broke the piggy bank and got a Navigator. It's been a dream, and now I'm looking at getting a Native not really out of need but just pure, money-burning, desire. It's an illness, but one I'm not curing any time soon. Since the Navigator's in VG10, I'm gonna get my hands on a s30v Native. Might as well since I'll just gonna be itching for a Millie sooner or later. Man oh man - I don't know whether to hug Sal or kick him if I ever see him.
 
Thanks for the reply, Mr Glesser.

Sorry, I thought you were saying that you had broken a Strider, hence my query. I guess we will have to wait for some generous fellow to put the Sttrider and the Chinook through some rigorous testing to know the answer to which folder has the bragging rights as being the strongest folder lock-wise in the world...

Heheh, though if I ever spent the moolah to buy a Strider, ain't no way anybody's going to subject it to a breaking test! :D
 
Glass has a tremedous tensil strength per square inch, which actually increases as you make the strand thinner (I mean MUCH stronger than steel for example, if my memory serves me correctly, we are talking millions of pounds/square inch on micron sized fibers). The shear forces are pretty small in a thin fiber, so it is actually quite flexible if it is thin enough (compares kind of to a fingernail and hair, very similar material. Fingernails break, hair doesn't). I glassblow occasionally, and if I pull the hot glass, I can make hair-like strands of glass which I can easily wrap around my arm. FRN can be VERY strong, but Glass isn't exactly lightweight. Carbon fiber is lighter and it is easier to get the fibers directional if I am not mistaken.
 
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