Need A Little Gun Advice...

We left-handed people deeply resent having our common designation bastardized by application to left-wing gun-grabbers.;)

Seriously, I have no experience whatsoever with the Remington and thus will not extol or denigrate it. I can say that I have owned a couple of Benelli M1 Super 90's for many years and have never regretted spending the money on either of them. They are much superior in reliability to any gas-operated semi-auto I have ever owned.
 
300Six said:
Stay the H away from semis unless you're a nut about buying new ones every couple of years and/or cleaning and ensuring worn parts are up to spec. None of the dozens of hunting/shooting buddies of mine that bought into 1100s during the 1970s will trust them to function reliably anymore. Just when you count on a semi the most it'll be reliable the least. Remington 870s were slick design post war cheap/expedient pump shotguns and have withstood the test of time to the tune of millions made so far. Norinco (China) is even making them by the truckload now. If your left or right hand has any strength in it a pump gun will operate regardless of temperature/fouling/sand/swelled cartridges, bloopers and dirty chambers. This is infinitely valuable if your life depends on it.
The 870 Express budget models that have been marketed as of the past 25+ years are much rougher and weighty than the predecessor Wingmaster models which are also still available but custom at 2-3X the cost but it's well worth searching around to find a golden oldie version. 3 inch and 3 1/2 chamber guns is mostly a gimmick to sell new guns; a lead-filled 2 3/4 inch can stop any man.
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Personally seen parts fall off some of the 870 clones I would not own one.

I went to Remington 870 Armorer's class and learned a lot. Don't get me wrong they are still really really reliable but I never realized that there are a few parts that deal with ejection that if they break just right you basicly have to send the gun to Remington. I have also witnessed people not completely pump the slide during stress thus having that terrible "click" sound instead of the bang. Add to that that I am the only male in my house and I have been looking at semi autos too. I am going to shoot a buddies FN in a couple of weeks. I know nothing about the Versa Max though. I wish Browning made a Maxus tactical gun. I have never had a gas Browning duck gun fail me.
 
engineerciv said:
Spyderwire, are you saying this because you only have experience with the Benelli? Or have you heard poor things about the Versa Max? I have heard that the technology between them is virtually identical and that it is really only a matter of manufacturing quality. Obviously Benelli wins there, but I would take my chances with 1/100 shotguns. Considering most of the VMT reviews have been positive on the build quality and reliability. Thanks for the input!:thumbup:
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I'm a Gunsmith by trade. I've handled most firearms available to the public, and some that aren't. Also, I said the M3 Super 90, not just an M2, or 4. The Super 90 is a different animal. It's a pump, and a semi auto rolled into one.
Lora7 said:
That is one intimidating snowman! :eek:
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EchoBravoKilo said:
Snowperson. After all, it's for the lefties...
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lol
 
Also, for a home defense gun, having something like a 12" Beowulf, or 458 SOCOM in an AR with a Sig brace is a better option. People always continue to think that a shotgun is the best home gun, and it isn't. At the close distances, you still have to aim because the pattern spread isn't good enough to vote a shotty in at #1. Lots of variables determine the spread of a shotgun like barrel length, if there is a choke, load, pellet size, and wad type...
 
spyderwire said:
Lots of variables determine the spread of a shotgun like barrel length, if there is a choke, load, pellet size, and wad type...
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Yup, a lot of "economic" home defense shotguns are fixed cylinder choke, not my first choice. I'd rather spend a little more at get one that can take tubes and run a turkey choke in it.


As for a Beowulf or SOCOM, always thought those as overkill for home defense. People aren't that........thick (like using a 300 Win Mag on a deer at 100 yards)
 
M67 said:
Yup, a lot of "economic" home defense shotguns are fixed cylinder choke, not my first choice. I'd rather spend a little more at get one that can take tubes and run a turkey choke in it.


As for a Beowulf or SOCOM, always thought those as overkill for home defense. People aren't that........thick (like using a 300 Win Mag on a deer at 100 yards)
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Amen to that. I send my short shottys to a smith to get remchoke threading installed. I mount a full or extra full choke in my defense guns. A wide pattern gives a little more room for error I suppose, but also room to hit something you do not intend to hit.... especially at distance. Given the litegeous nature of society an errant pellet could be very costly.

.
 
I have used a Benelli M1 Super 90 for a lot of years now ... the Versa Max as you say is operationally the same ... they should be extremely good :thumbup:

I have never had any problem at all with my Benelli ... many thousands of rounds through it ... no reliability problems at all.

I have not had long term experience with the Versa Max so cannot comment on quality - solely on the mechanical similarity.

As a hopefully helpful observation - whether pistols, rifles or shotguns - save longer and buy the best in class (or buy the best in class second hand) and you eliminate the niggle of doubt that caused this thread. I suspect you could get an excellent M1 second hand for the same money as a new Versa Max. ... if you want to know why I have stuck with my old M1 I have given my thoughts below ...

The bolt on the M1 allows you to ghost load an extra shell on the shell carrier with a full tube. The M2 and subsequent models prevented this by modifying the bolt .This gives you an extra round capacity for no extra mag length.

The chokes on the M1 are the standard Beretta flush type threaded chokes - those on the M2 and later models are chyro treated ( which does not do a lot IMO and is gimmicky ) and a lot more expensive and only fit those Benelli's. When grouping solid slugs you may want to try different chokes to get a tighter group. Changing chokes can offer an amazing difference. I found a full choke for my M1 which enables fantastic grouping at 25 yards.

The internals are better quality on old M1's and they run smoother and do not use plastic on the trigger guard ( they do on the M2 ) and the mag tube is a single tube and not a two piece and is tougher and more reliable.

You can also unload the tube on the M1 by pushing in the shell retainer pin so the rounds do not need to run through the action. Safer and quicker to change shell selection for different situations. This was removed on the M2's and subsequent models.

The M3 is a semi-auto or pump option variable shotgun. Perhaps designed to use the pump option with the stock collapsed due to potential problems on reliability from recoil operation when there is no butt. The M1, M2 and M3 in semi auto mode need the butt in the shoulder to work reliably given that it is recoil operated. Not a problem if you want to hit what you are shooting at.

The M3 is an answer to a problem I do not have. I use the butt to enable me to be accurate. I have seen pistol grip shotguns fired from the hip point blank at door hinges with hatton rounds to breach the entry ... and miss!

The M4 is gas operated .... designed to appeal to those who put a lot of gear on the shotgun to the point it is so heavy the recoil system may be impeded .... or don't like recoil and/or suffer limp wristed technique ... or for those who want to fire from the hip ... or for those who enjoy clearing jams ...

Old M1s are like many weapons ... much better than their successors ...

Swiss Sig P210's ... Benelli M1's ... 1970's 1911's ... 1970's Colt Pythons ... 1970's Dan Wesson revolvers ... 1970's Ruger Integral Silenced .22's .... ( and on and on ) ...

They don't build in quality like they used to ....
 
PeterPHWS said:
Old M1s are like many weapons ... much better than their successors ...

Swiss Sig P210's ... Benelli M1's ... 1970's 1911's ... 1970's Colt Pythons ... 1970's Dan Wesson revolvers ... 1970's Ruger Integral Silenced .22's .... ( and on and on ) ...

They don't build in quality like they used to ....
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......you forgot P226 West German made;)
 
M67 said:
Yup, a lot of "economic" home defense shotguns are fixed cylinder choke, not my first choice. I'd rather spend a little more at get one that can take tubes and run a turkey choke in it.


As for a Beowulf or SOCOM, always thought those as overkill for home defense. People aren't that........thick (like using a 300 Win Mag on a deer at 100 yards)
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You can use subsonic loads and a light spring to dampen the overkill factor, and keep the punch. Plus, you still have a 10 round stick in a small package that keeps going with the booger picker over and over....
PeterPHWS said:
The M3 is a semi-auto or pump option variable shotgun. Perhaps designed to use the pump option with the stock collapsed due to potential problems on reliability from recoil operation when there is no butt. The M1, M2 and M3 in semi auto mode need the butt in the shoulder to work reliably given that it is recoil operated. Not a problem if you want to hit what you are shooting at.

The M3 is an answer to a problem I do not have. I use the butt to enable me to be accurate. I have seen pistol grip shotguns fired from the hip point blank at door hinges with hatton rounds to breach the entry ... and miss!
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The M3 was designed to be a shotgun that you could use as semi auto with full loads of any kind, and a pump that you could use "less lethal", and light shot rounds in that don't have the power to cycle a semi auto. One shotgun works on all types of ammo instead of having to have two to use. Also, I have used it in sporting clays where you can't have a semi. It's nice because I am super familiar with the M3 in all types of scenario's. I can, and have used one shotgun for everything instead of multiple ones. Also, like I said before, I have the length of a 7 round tube, but can get 9 in the shotgun.
 
spyderwire said:
Also, for a home defense gun, having something like a 12" Beowulf, or 458 SOCOM in an AR with a Sig brace is a better option. People always continue to think that a shotgun is the best home gun, and it isn't. At the close distances, you still have to aim because the pattern spread isn't good enough to vote a shotty in at #1. Lots of variables determine the spread of a shotgun like barrel length, if there is a choke, load, pellet size, and wad type...
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At home defense distances, the pattern will likely be no bigger than a fist no matter what choke is used. This translates to maybe 2" of error either way that the pattern will fix, hardly the just point it in the general direction gun everybody would have you think it was.

I would much rather use an AR pistol of virtually any caliber over the shotgun in this role. The biggest thing I dislike about shotguns in the tactical world is how difficult they are to reload quickly in addition to the already severely limited magazine capacity. Add in the 12 GA recoil and it should be obvious that there are much better choices for 99% of tactical applications out there, this is all IMO of course……. :)
 
M67 said:
As for a Beowulf or SOCOM, always thought those as overkill for home defense. People aren't that........thick (like using a 300 Win Mag on a deer at 100 yards)
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It's not really so much about penetration, as it is throwing the largest/heaviest/fastest projectile which typically equals having more of an effect on whatever you're 'hunting'. I don't see .300 Win Mag as overkill at all on a deer at 100 yds., assuming it will not cause the shooter to flinch and miss the shot in anticipation of the recoil. There's no such thing as too dead…… :)
 
Off topic but.. I wouldn't want to see what a .300 win mag would do to the hind quarter or shoulder. :eek:
 
spyderwire said:
You can use subsonic loads and a light spring to dampen the overkill factor, and keep the punch. Plus, you still have a 10 round stick in a small package that keeps going with the booger picker over and over....
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I didn't know subsonic loads were commercially available for those calibers? I thought you had to reload for it. Then you get in the age old pissing contest of it's legal to use those dangerous man killer handloads ( :rolleyes: ). On that note though, I use reloads for a lot of things.

300 BLK is a niche caliber, but using it for what it was designed for (subsonic, close range, anti personel) might be a good option plus you have more in the mag (not to say you want to get in a shoot out in your living room, at 6 yards distance, and need 30 rounds; but just saying.


aaaa_cccc said:
It's not really so much about penetration, as it is throwing the largest/heaviest/fastest projectile which typically equals having more of an effect on whatever you're 'hunting'. I don't see .300 Win Mag as overkill at all on a deer at 100 yds., assuming it will not cause the shooter to flinch and miss the shot in anticipation of the recoil. There's no such thing as too dead…… :)
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In Indiana we're pretty limited in deer hunting calibers through a rifle. A lot of deer over here are taken with 357 or 44 mags, some 454 hunters, some 460; .450 Bushmaster is gaining in populatiry, 50 Beowulf was but that past 7 months ammo sucks to find, 458 Socom is popular too because it was legal before 450 Bushmaster by a year

Anyway, when a lot of deer here are taken with a 357 at 100 or 44 at 150, then it really does show you that 300 Win Mag or 7mm mag at 100 is overkill.


As for the "too dead" thing, I'll agree with that on 2 accounts. 1) Crows, screw them, use a 50BMG on the loud bastards. 2) When something has teeth and more than capable of eating my ass. Dying happens, but I sure as hell don't want to be eaten to death. So, large calibers FTW when something can hunt me

:)
 
M67 said:
I didn't know subsonic loads were commercially available for those calibers? I thought you had to reload for it. Then you get in the age old pissing contest of it's legal to use those dangerous man killer handloads ( :rolleyes: ). On that note though, I use reloads for a lot of things.

300 BLK is a niche caliber, but using it for what it was designed for (subsonic, close range, anti personel) might be a good option plus you have more in the mag (not to say you want to get in a shoot out in your living room, at 6 yards distance, and need 30 rounds; but just saying.
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The 300 would actually be a great choice. Get some 225gr loads... ya... 30 of those suckers coming at ya..... Actually, you gave me my next "house" gun idea I believe... It won't have the punch of the 600gr 458... but they should work with 30 or so in a mag.
 
spyderwire said:
The 300 would actually be a great choice. Get some 225gr loads... ya... 30 of those suckers coming at ya..... Actually, you gave me my next "house" gun idea I believe... It won't have the punch of the 600gr 458... but they should work with 30 or so in a mag.
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I guess we are pretty far off the shotgun topic but is there actually a 225 gr. that will relaiably expand? My admittedly limited research led me to the "no" answer without I think they are called "Lehigh" bullets. That is way too specialized for me.

Loading and reloading a shotgun are slow but I still believe it is hard to beat inside a home. Here is a repost from-

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...usse-Security-Blanket/page8?highlight=shotgun

where our very own Lexi was asking about home defense. I see no need for any kind of choke or turkey choke for home defense. It seems like the technology needed to make steel shot fly farther for waterfowlers has been effectively transdferred to 00 buckshot. Aim, squeeze, stuff gets one big or 8 medium holes that leak.

"I went to the range today real quick with some older Federal 2 3/4" Tactical shells with their flight control wad using 8 OO pellets http://le.atk.com/general/federalpro...csnbcksht.aspx. I think viva la said that various loads will pattern different and that is exactly true. Shotgun was Rem 870 with 18" IC choke barrel. 24 degrees, wind 0-3mph, sun overhead. First pick is lasered 10 yards, 2nd pic is lasered 20 yards (pic isn't great but one of those is a double hit), 3rd pic is lasered 30 yards. I find it interesting that the third shot strings vertically. All 8 pellets well within body out to 30 yards witch is impossible to shoot inside my house. Heck I can't shoot 20 yards inside my house. I must input that these shells are designed to stay together for self defense reasons and "birdshot" is made to spread out to have more chances at well....flying birds. It does show what I mean when I say I have to Aim with My shotgun or I will miss. It is a fine defensive weapon.

I also wanted to do another 10 yard target but ran out of clean targets. I think that was kind of an anomoly. I think it should spread out to at least fist size at that distance."

View attachment 246571View attachment 246572View attachment 246573

Since then I have shot it back to 50 yards . Two chest hits and six on the body out of 8 pellets.
 

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Zymologist said:
Off topic but.. I wouldn't want to see what a .300 win mag would do to the hind quarter or shoulder. :eek:
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.....or the wall(s) it went through , after hitting the shoulder......or the neighbor it went through, who was sitting at home watching the tv.... Over penetration, perhaps?

I understand the off topic part but if anyone thinks of using this in home defense...ouch!!!!!
 
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messer454 said:
I guess we are pretty far off the shotgun topic but is there actually a 225 gr. that will relaiably expand? My admittedly limited research led me to the "no" answer without I think they are called "Lehigh" bullets. That is way too specialized for me.

Loading and reloading a shotgun are slow but I still believe it is hard to beat inside a home. Here is a repost from-

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...usse-Security-Blanket/page8?highlight=shotgun

where our very own Lexi was asking about home defense. I see no need for any kind of choke or turkey choke for home defense. It seems like the technology needed to make steel shot fly farther for waterfowlers has been effectively transdferred to 00 buckshot. Aim, squeeze, stuff gets one big or 8 medium holes that leak.

"I went to the range today real quick with some older Federal 2 3/4" Tactical shells with their flight control wad using 8 OO pellets http://le.atk.com/general/federalpro...csnbcksht.aspx. I think viva la said that various loads will pattern different and that is exactly true. Shotgun was Rem 870 with 18" IC choke barrel. 24 degrees, wind 0-3mph, sun overhead. First pick is lasered 10 yards, 2nd pic is lasered 20 yards (pic isn't great but one of those is a double hit), 3rd pic is lasered 30 yards. I find it interesting that the third shot strings vertically. All 8 pellets well within body out to 30 yards witch is impossible to shoot inside my house. Heck I can't shoot 20 yards inside my house. I must input that these shells are designed to stay together for self defense reasons and "birdshot" is made to spread out to have more chances at well....flying birds. It does show what I mean when I say I have to Aim with My shotgun or I will miss. It is a fine defensive weapon.

I also wanted to do another 10 yard target but ran out of clean targets. I think that was kind of an anomoly. I think it should spread out to at least fist size at that distance."

View attachment 246571View attachment 246572View attachment 246573

Since then I have shot it back to 50 yards . Two chest hits and six on the body out of 8 pellets.
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You are using what my local PD uses in their shotties (870 smooth bore, no choke)..... They practice up to 20 yards with it. Instructors are rather unhappy if shooters even get one pellet out of target.....
 
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