Need a Sharpener...Advice? (LONG)

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bobofish

Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
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Bear with me if this has been covered to death. I'm having some computer troubles, and on top of that I can't search the forum.

Just like the title says, I think I need a sharpener. Most of you will cringe, but for years now I've kindof made do without much of a sharpener. I used a couple of those pocket V things, but unsurprisingly they didn't work that great. Once in a while I'd have a kitchen knife sharpened. I'm tired of this.

I started carrying a big leatherman (carried a micra for I don't know how long) about a year ago, and a couple months ago started to carry a good folder. I found myself not using the blades as much or as thoroughly as I should because I was worried about dulling them. My wife made an innocent remark the other day as we were eating steak that it's amazing that in a knife nut's house this steak knife won't cut this steak very easily. Choice NY by the way. (!)

For three or four months or so I've been trying to learn the craft of freehand sharpening. As well as a few other things, I recently inherited some stones. A set of nice natural stones, and a Norton indiastone. As we were remodeling, my wife was carrying the stones and dropped them. Then I had twice as many natural stones, and one Norton indiastone with just a chip on one corner. 2 points for Norton I suppose.

Either it's the stone, or more likely I just can't quite get the hang of it. A month ago I sharpened a Shun chef's knife that my wife had badly abused (I was out of town) and had to do some SERIOUS edgework. It was very tedious, took me a very long time, but I thought I got it back to shape. It would cut paper, and seemed on the way to good sharpness. It's seen light use since then, and a couple of days ago, I realized the damn thing is dull again. Those are good knives, it had to be the edge I put on it.


LOOONg story short, I'm looking for a sharpener. Eventually I want to do freehand. I think in many things in life, the process is just as important as the result, and just as interesting. For the time being, I need sharp knives.

I've looked at the Spyderco Sharpmaker. I even tried it out last night at a knife shop, and my Leatherman's 154CM and my Benchmade's s30v have never been sharper. I do have a couple questions:
1) Where is the sharpmaker made? Japan or the US? There is no labeling on the package, leading me to think US. There are a lot of tricks going on these days with manufacturers though, so I will not give them the benefit of the doubt.
2) Is this the "real deal;" I know this is no set of Japanese whetstones, but is this a system that a real knife person would use, or just a quick no-brainer tool?
(incidentally the salesman at one of theknife shops I went to seemed to contradict a few of the things that I have come to understand about how the sharpmaker works...this story is already long, so I won't get into it)

I've also looked briefly at the Lansky system, off the top of my head I don't remember the name. The one with the vise and angle holes, and all that jazz. I'm pleased that it's made in the US, and the salesman at Sportsman's Warehouse last night thought highly of it. He hasn't used the Spyderco however. I also like that it seems to be a much less expensive system overall. Even if I spring for the diamond system and buy each one of the course through fine extra pieces, it's still less than the Spyderco with all the sticks. I can't imagine I need all that stuff though, just an example. As a guess, I'm figuring I wouldn't need much more than the regular three stone set with maybe a diamond course for bad edges and maybe an extra fine for that minty fresh feeling.

I'm looking for recommendations people. I seem to remember reading a few months ago while I was just a lurker here, that people thought the Lansky was a gimmick. Why is that?

Any and all reccommendations are welcome. I don't want to spend a mountain of money, partly because...well I don't, and partly because that money might be better off eventually down the road buying some nice freehand stones. If I can spend less than a hundred, I'll be happy.

Country of origin is very important to me; I won't touch Chinese made, and I'm reluctant to buy non-US because the US still has good cutlery stuff. If I'm convinced of the quality of a piece from Japan or Europe, so be it. Don't get me wrong; I have Henckels knives, I drive a Toyota. My wife is from Europe, and I was technically made there. But no China.

Bottom line: I'm looking for the real deal in sharpening even if it involves a learning curve. The freehand seems to be too steep right this moment. Or hell, maybe it's the stone. (sure)
 
Sharpmaker is (like all Spyderco ceramic stones) made in USA.

It's great if you are willing to reprofile your edge angle to lower than Sharpmaker setup (that is 20 or 15 degrees per side) so that you can sharpen only microbevel (~quick) - Spyderco ceramics are pretty slow (their benchstones seem to remove bit faster (not much :)), but it may be just my impression) to remove metal (it's virutally impossible to reprofile the edge with it - but that's what coarse stones are for :)).
As have been said before, the name Sharpkeeper would suit better :) However it is pretty easy to use and you can get good results with it.

So to sum it up - buy Sharpmaker AND some (extra) coarse stone and you will be fine.
 
Using the SS (Spyderco Sharpmaker) IS freehand sharpening. The V system just makes it easier to consistantly put the knife to stone at the same angle on both sides. Most people can more accurately/repeatedly eyball "vertical" in the V than they can some constant angle on a horizontal stone. Get a course stone for the primary beveling, then refine and finish the edge on the Sharpmaker. Here is a quick and easy way to a sharp edge:

PRIMARY BEVEL:
Set the SS for 30° (15°each). Stand a coarse stone (Xstone) on end inside the V and lean it flush against one of the SS stones. Hold a knife vertically (edge to spine) against the coarse stone like you were going to slice the stone. This will show you what it looks like to address the Xstone at 15° with THAT knife. Lean the knife ~5° from verticle toward the Xstone so that you are now addressing it at ~10°. Look long and hard at the distance between the spine and stone. Remember it!!! That's ~10° for THAT knife/blade width. Lay the Xstone flat, prep it as required and sharpen away at ~10° until sharp.

SECONDARY BEVEL:
Set the SS medium stones for 30° (15° each) and sharpen according to the SS instructions. This step won't take long.

FINAL BEVEL:
Set the SS fine stones for 40° (20° each) and finish sharpening according to the SS instructions. This step will take even less time.

This tri-bevel approach is the easy way to a sharp a blade with an edge that can be renewed as needed with just a few quick passes on the SS fine stones. Don't overdo each renewal or you will grind away the secondary bevel prematurely. More is not better,
 
I have both of the systems you speak of and I like the Sharpmaker better. It is much easier to use, setup, and maintain. It takes about 30 seconds to set up and in 5 minutes, I can get a hair whittling edge. Then about another 30 seconds to put away and done!

The Lansky is nice, but not as easy to use. It take a while to set it up and get the right angles, and when it is set up, I find it can take up to 2 hours to get the type of edge that I get with the Sharpmaker, and as mentioned earlier, the Sharpmaker only takes about 5 minutes to get a really nice edge.

The only time I use the Lansky is when I need to re-profile the edge, then I finish with the Sharpmaker. Overall, I would go with the Sharpmaker. Once you have and exact edge, make sure you don't let it get dull. Once the hair whittling feeling goes away and it stops shaving, touch the edge up. With the Sharpmaker, it only takes a few swipes and the edge is back!

But it is up to you:D:thumbup:
 
If your knife is ready to be used on the sharpmaker as were the two that you used, then the Sharpmaker is indeed the real deal/no brainer. The thing is, as has been stated here already in so many terms, your knife already needs to be profiled to a lower angle than the angle you choose on the Sharpmaker. The Sharpmaker is the single most highly recommended sharpener on this sight, as it is the most effective at producing the best edges consistently for users ranging from novice to pro. I'm not saying it is the single best sharpener, just the best all around for touching up your edges conveniently and effectively.

The main drawback of the Sharpmaker is it won't remove very much steel, which may be necessary to repair a badly damaged edge or to reprofile a knife to a lower angle. I personally use a DMT Aligner kit for this kind of work. It is similar to the Lansky however it uses DMT's diamond hones which are wider than the Lansky hones. I can't say whether DMT's diamond hones are better quality than the Lansky's diamonds, but I do feel that the whole set up is a definate improvement over the Lansky. The Aligner can also be used effectively with benchstones, which you can not do with the Lansky.

If you go with this kind of sharpener, you would be much better off with diamonds rather than regular stones with the steel you mentioned above.
 
I too have some of the same trouble. I have a Lansky....can get a blade somewhat sharp with the Lansky, but not to that razor "hair-popping" edge I have seen others achieve.

Was wondering....has anyone had expierence with the "RADA" Sharpeners (with the carbide discs) ??

-BluesK
 
It's not your computer- the search function is currently available only for paid members. Still, you've come to the right place! There's a wealth of good info here on sharpening, just takes a bit of time to find it. Let me summarize my own opinions by copying a post I made at another forum:

Well, working as a chef for years definately instills an appreciating for the inportance of keeping your knives sharp. There's definately an air of mystery around the sharpening process; one one level it's extremely simple, but it's not easy! Japanese waterstones can give you a spooky-sharp edge but freehanding requires a lot of skill and can take a lot of patience and practice. There are a variety of methods the pro's and skilled amatuers use (hones, waterstones, paper wheels, strops, mousepad-and-sandpaper) and they can acheive great results. But there if you're "coordination-challenged" there are some superb options that will give you an edge that will shave with a minimum of hassle. I'll list my recommendations in reverse order of desirability (and not coincidentally, from cheapest to most expensive!).

3) The Edgemaker Pro- These are a very innovative and effective "V-type" pull thru system that utilizes varying grit aluminum oxide coated rods, much harder than any blade steel you'll ever encounter (close to diamonds in hardness). When you press down and draw the knife thru, you compress them like a spring, allowing them to really cut a bevel quickly. There are three main tools, with 4 grits. There are several virtues to this sytem. First, they're so simple to use a monkey could use 'em. Just line the blade up with the slot at a slight angle and draw the blade thru, applying firm pressure. Second, they remove very little metal. Obviously the coarser grits remove more metal, but you'll rarely use them- once you get a good edge, you'll mostly use just the finest grit (the Yellow Handy Honer.) Lastly, it's extremely effective. My Dad has sharpened hundreds of knives with his, and nearly all of them are shaving sharp. I've used mine on many knives, and have taken the junkie, "disposable" knives from the commercial kitchens I've run and put an edge on them that will push cut paper and shave hair easily. It will even sharpen serrated knives very effectively! They're pretty cheap, about $30 for all three with free shipping, or $10 for just the Handy Honer. The downside? There are a few knives it just doesn't work on, mostly due to the way they're ground. And I wouldn't advise you run a single bevel knife like an Usuba thru it (although I did it just to try it out, and it did give me a scary sharp edge- but it probably altered the bevel). For keeping cheap-to-midprice knives razor sharp with rediculously little effort, the Edgemaker is tops.

2) The Spyderco 204 Tri-Angle Sharpmaker- This sharpener is legendary on the knife forums. It will put an edge on almost any knife that will shave like a razor and push cut with ease. It comes with 2 grits, but finer and coarser rods can be added, including diamond rods. It's really simple to use, too, and is based on the fact that while holding a knife at, say, a 21.5 degree angle is very difficult, virtually everyone can easily hold something straight up and down at a 90 degree angle. The Sharpmaker will also teach you a lot about the process of sharpening, too. The basic set sells for between $45 and $65 depending on where you buy.

3) The Edge Pro and Edge Pro Apex- IMOHO this is the finest guided sharpening system out there. It utilizes synthetic waterstones, high grit polish tapes and a ceramic hone to put an edge on your blade that's breathtakingly sharp! It has a little bit of a learning curve (it'll probably take you 10-15 knives to feel like you really have it down pat- Ben Dale, the inventor, has a DVD & manual that help a lot) but it's worth the effort. The knives I've sharpened on my Apex will easily delaminate paper and many will fillet a human hair. It'll sharpen any knife, including single bevel & differentially bevelled blades, although it won't correctly sharpen a concave edge (of course, you can't usually do them freehand on stones, either- it takes a belt or mousepad-type sharpener for that. I've never seen a concave kitchen knive, btw, and I'm not sure any exist). The only downside is the cost- from EdgePro Inc it will cost you about $200 for the Apex, or $375-$500 for the Pro model. There are some authorized resellers for the Apex with much better prices, some as low as $125 for the bare-bones model. I bought mine for about $225 with a bunch of extra waterstones, a carrying case, DVD & ceramic hone, as well as a blank for polishing tapes. Short of learning to freehand on waterstones or mastering the abrasive belt, there's no better way to sharpen a knife, and even those methods really aren't any more effective. I wouldn't part with mine and give it my strongest possible recommendation!

There is no "best" method for everyone. I love my Apex but still use my Edgemaker's a heckuva lot. I tuck the two peices with the 3 finer grits into my chefs roll to take to work and have sharpened many knives to shaving-sharp that otherwise would be used as dull as a butter knife. They'll take a knife from very-dull to extremely-sharp in well under 1 minute, and I can teach anyone to use it in less than 5 minutes. For cheaper knives it's really not worth it to me to drag out the stones, and periodic honing will keep them very sharp. Of course, the art of sharpening can be a very enjoyable & therapeutic hobby in and of itself.

No matter what route you take, remember- a sharp knife is safer and makes cooking a lot more enjoyable. Getting and keeping a good edge is so simple that there's no longer any excuse for tolerating a dull knife.:D



Let me add to that- if you want to learn to sharpen freehand, I highly recommend Dave Martell's 2 DVD video series on sharpening. After the first viewing my freehand sharpening got a lot stronger, and you'll pick up more with each viewing. Practice is the key!

Best luck, and welcome to the world of sharpening!:)
 
I've also looked briefly at the Lansky system, off the top of my head I don't remember the name. The one with the vise and angle holes, and all that jazz. I'm pleased that it's made in the US, and the salesman at Sportsman's Warehouse last night thought highly of it. He hasn't used the Spyderco however. I also like that it seems to be a much less expensive system
Click to expand...

There is also the KME system.
http://www.kmesharp.com/index.html

Knife Sharpening Segment
 
The Sharpmaker is great for maintenance of already sharp blades. The Lansky, GATCO, KME, EdgePro are great for rebeveling and sharpening dull blades.

I use the GATCO for both with added ceramic and ultrafins stones.

The Sharpmaker along with a guided system will serve you well.
 
Edgepro Apex. Worth the money. Saves you very much time (as long as your family and friends don't bring their overly dull knives). Makes your knives beyond sharp and your able to make a nice even polished edge.
 
Wow, I didn't look for a couple days, and wow!

Thanks for the tips. I know it was a long rambling post, maybe I should've just said "sharpmaker or lansky," but I wanted a little more info. Thanks!

FWIW, the folks at Spyderco told me the Sharpmaker is a 100% Golden Colorado product.


So to sum up, if I use my Norton course side to aggressively attack problems, and then use the Sharpmaker to actually put a sharp edge on the knife, I'm ok for the time being? I seem to be able to produce something approaching an edge with the stone, so until I really can get an edge, maybe the Spyderco is the ticket. I have to admit, as much as I like the idea of stones, too many things in my life I do the long way. Unless somebody changes the length of the day to 36 hours, it would be nice to be able to touch up an edge in a couple of minutes now and then.

Also, is the Edge Pro worth the dough if I'm eventually going to go to freehand stones anyway? In other words, would I still want to use the Edge Pro even if I have stones? Even though I don't like the price, I like to support local companies, and they're just a drive over the hill from me.

Put another way, let's say I keep have the Norton and the Sharpmaker for quick work, and eventually move to stones when I have the time for some edge meditation, is there any reason to get an Edge Pro?
 
bobofish said:
Also, is the Edge Pro worth the dough if I'm eventually going to go to freehand stones anyway? In other words, would I still want to use the Edge Pro even if I have stones? Even though I don't like the price, I like to support local companies, and they're just a drive over the hill from me.

Put another way, let's say I keep have the Norton and the Sharpmaker for quick work, and eventually move to stones when I have the time for some edge meditation, is there any reason to get an Edge Pro?
Click to expand...


Yes. No matter how good you get you'll never be more accurate than the EP. I know several professional sharpeners, guys that can run a waterstone freehand like Van Halen runs a guitar, that use an Edge Pro for their high dollar accounts.

The best freehanders can match the EP, but I've never seen anyone surpass it. Your $200-500 (depending on the package) will be well spent.

Btw, I'm no wet-behind-the-ears nOOb when it comes to the wet rock, and even though I like sharpening freehand, I can't imagine getting rid of my EP. It's not a replacement for sharpening knowledge; on the contrary, it magnifies that knowledge and distills it into the pure essence. You will get a freaky edge if you put the time in.
 
bobofish said:
That's not good news for my wallet!
Click to expand...

But wonderful news for your knifes, surely? :D

I'm going to have to buy one of them Edge Pro thingumabobs eventually, although I'm trying to convince myself that my freehanding skills are good enough for the time being.
 
Rob Babcock said:
3) The Edgemaker Pro- These are a very innovative and effective "V-type" pull thru system that utilizes varying grit aluminum oxide coated rods, much harder than any blade steel you'll ever encounter (close to diamonds in hardness). When you press down and draw the knife thru, you compress them like a spring, allowing them to really cut a bevel quickly. There are three main tools, with 4 grits. There are several virtues to this sytem. First, they're so simple to use a monkey could use 'em. Just line the blade up with the slot at a slight angle and draw the blade thru, applying firm pressure. Second, they remove very little metal. Obviously the coarser grits remove more metal, but you'll rarely use them- once you get a good edge, you'll mostly use just the finest grit (the Yellow Handy Honer.) Lastly, it's extremely effective. My Dad has sharpened hundreds of knives with his, and nearly all of them are shaving sharp. I've used mine on many knives, and have taken the junkie, "disposable" knives from the commercial kitchens I've run and put an edge on them that will push cut paper and shave hair easily. It will even sharpen serrated knives very effectively! They're pretty cheap, about $30 for all three with free shipping, or $10 for just the Handy Honer. The downside? There are a few knives it just doesn't work on, mostly due to the way they're ground. And I wouldn't advise you run a single bevel knife like an Usuba thru it (although I did it just to try it out, and it did give me a scary sharp edge- but it probably altered the bevel). For keeping cheap-to-midprice knives razor sharp with rediculously little effort, the Edgemaker is tops.
Click to expand...

Rob,
I took a look and am wondering what are the angles on the devices? and are they graduated like the Sharpmaker?

The instructions say to hold the knife at a 45deg angle. Do they really mean 90deg? This is the page w/ demo pics; (I think it would be what you are referring to):

http://www.edgemaker.com/4_step.htm
 
If you want to be able to sharpen anything, check out Jerry Hossom's recommendation here.

It will cost you about twice what the Sharpmaker does, and will allow you to quickly and easily sharpen absolutely anything - razor, knife, axe, sword, whatever - to a scary sharp edge.

Tip: Buy a couple of cheap kitchen knives to practice on.

:thumbup:
 
annr said:
Rob,
I took a look and am wondering what are the angles on the devices? and are they graduated like the Sharpmaker?

The instructions say to hold the knife at a 45deg angle. Do they really mean 90deg? This is the page w/ demo pics; (I think it would be what you are referring to):

http://www.edgemaker.com/4_step.htm
Click to expand...

The angles for each will vary because the rods give (flex) a bit with pressure on the knife. The more pressure, the greater the angle.

The 45° degrees refers the position of the knife from tip to heel (not edge to spine) to the counter top (horizontal). Notice in the demo that the knife is being drawn from heel to tip at 45° from the horizontal, not being drawn perpendicular to the counter top (90°). The knife is positioned at 90° (from edge to spine) to the base of the sharpener (= centered in the V). Hope this makes sense. :)
 
Zeasor said:
The angles for each will vary because the rods give (flex) a bit with pressure on the knife. The more pressure, the greater the angle.

The 45° degrees refers the position of the knife from tip to heel (not edge to spine) to the counter top (horizontal). Notice in the demo that the knife is being drawn from heel to tip at 45° from the horizontal, not being drawn perpendicular to the counter top (90°). The knife is positioned at 90° (from edge to spine) to the base of the sharpener (= centered in the V). Hope this makes sense. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks Zeasor,
I got it. I see it would be difficult to hold the knife straight up and down to do the stroke:o.

I'm looking for angles approx. 15-20deg per side for a razor-style knife that is about 3" long and about 1/2" high (distance from edge to spine).

See any problems those angles or with that application?
 
annr said:
...I'm looking for angles approx. 15-20deg per side for a razor-style knife that is about 3" long and about 1/2" high (distance from edge to spine).

See any problems those angles or with that application?
Click to expand...

If you are asking me, sorry, you're out of luck.:eek: left out in the cold.:eek: left at the station.:eek: I have several different pull-thru sharpners similar to the Edgemaker but not the Edgemaker itself. Hopefully someone with Edgemaker experience will come along with the actual angles.:) The effectiveness of this type sharpener diminishes with use because it is hard to clean the metal which accumulates on the abrasive.

Personally, I prefer to free-hand on stones and to use V-type sharpeners such as the Spyderco Sharpmaker. Your knife is approx. the size of my straight razors which I maintain by stoning and stropping in less than a minute. That's quick and easy enough for my purposes. Your 3" blade could be easily maintained with a few small, inexpensive stones. There's nothing like polishing an edge to a mirror finish on a hard Arkansas stone. (it's a Zen thing :))
 
Zeasor said:
If you are asking me, sorry, you're out of luck.:eek: left out in the cold.:eek: left at the station.:eek: I have several different pull-thru sharpners similar to the Edgemaker but not the Edgemaker itself. Hopefully someone with Edgemaker experience will come along with the actual angles.:) The effectiveness of this type sharpener diminishes with use because it is hard to clean the metal which accumulates on the abrasive.

Personally, I prefer to free-hand on stones and to use V-type sharpeners such as the Spyderco Sharpmaker. Your knife is approx. the size of my straight razors which I maintain by stoning and stropping in less than a minute. That's quick and easy enough for my purposes. Your 3" blade could be easily maintained with a few small, inexpensive stones. There's nothing like polishing an edge to a mirror finish on a hard Arkansas stone. (it's a Zen thing :))
Click to expand...



Thanks Zeasor,
I have a boatload of stones , incl. a few hard Arkansas:), several strops, and multiple ceramic rods, steels.......... and am happy with freehand results. The crazy thing is that I would even consider buying anything else.:)
I use the knife to scrape and the edge degrades very quickly. I thought that this might be one option for the quick, easy, on-the-go type of thing. I hadn't considered the cleaning, tho steel shouldn't be a problem I would guess.
 
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