Need Advice on Forging Mokume

Daniel Fairly Knives

Daniel Fairly Knives

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I have a couple square inches of 1/16" copper/brass mokume that I would like to make into a free form shape for a menuki.

Any advice on shaping it? I may sand it to shape but thought forging could be fun.

I assume I should get to forging temperature, hammer while hot, water quench, then repeat. Is a quench necessary or is that more to keep softer for cold forming?

Temp advice? Do I need flux?

The melting point on this material is 1439 F, it is simply layers of alternating brass/copper and has not been made into a pattern.

I can use my kiln as a heat source (if that will work) and have some railroad track to forge on.


Thanks in advance for the help!
 
Don't forge it hot like you describe.

Heat to a dull red and let cool to black. Forge until it work hardens some. Re-anneal and re-work. With experience, you can work it at dull red, but never hit it at full red or it will crumble.

If working cold, you can water quench from black. No flux is needed or wanted.
 
AVigil said:
You might be able to pick up some answers here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmk5A6wS5gs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt7RHjgbjZE&feature=related
Click to expand...

Thanks! Much appreciated... :D

bladsmth said:
Don't forge it hot like you describe.

Heat to a dull red and let cool to black. Forge until it work hardens some. Re-anneal and re-work. With experience, you can work it at dull red, but never hit it at full red or it will crumble.

If working cold, you can water quench from black. No flux is needed or wanted.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much, that makes sense. :)


I'll post some pics if I make anything cool! I brine quenched a Hartsfield inspired W2 tanto that I expect to spend a lot of time polishing... it needs a nice menuki.
 
There are a lot of books and resources out there that relate to working non-ferrous metals. The most interesting one that I personally own is "Metals Technic", Brynmorgen Press publisher. It includes an article on anticlastic raising and patination. Jewelry making supply stores often have a great selection of books, or check out a silversmithing website.
 
I was unaware that there was an entire english written text on the subject. Need more books, clearly. To be more specific, my book recommendation was not specific to Japanese metals, but just an example of one of many resources on complex shaping in softer metals. Anticlastic raising is interesting, and the sinusoidal stakes that are used look versatile for more than just wider sheets.
 
Thanks again guys, I'll have to look into those books. I'd like to eventually get into making my own mokume, they would really help.

I think I have everything to make some besides maybe a press or clamping device, when I find the time I really want to get some made.
 
If you do diffusion welding in a stainless pouch, make the compression plates out of 1/2" steel with 3/8" or 1/2" bolts. Anything less won't hold up as well.

There are many specific things that need to be followed EXACTLY when making mokume and doing the initial weld, so read up and ask a lot of questions before doing the first billet.
 
Ian Ferguson's book covers a lot that Midgett only alludes to or assumes the reader knows.

Stacy's description of a press will work well--I'm in the process of building something a little more robust personally despite having used a similar setup.
Only thing I would add is to go the 1/2" and use carriage bolts.

The thing about the press isn't just compression for the stack, but rather to initiate the welding/diffusion as both the copper and NS will swell as they come through shift transformation.

In prepping the stack, sand each piece in the stack to about 220 and then wash thoroughly using just a light dish soap and water before pickling the plates.

Prep your foil wrap by applying whiteout to the foil, then strips of newspaper on top of the whiteout.
The newspaper and white out will keep the stack from sticking to the pack.

To make keeping the stack in line and without getting finger oils/sweat on it trying to fold it in the packet, I've taken to wrapping in parchment paper--dabbing a bit of water on the folds seals the envelope.

Since the stuff you're working is about 1/16, try a small stack first--8 or so layers.
Trust me--13 layers is a PITA, and anything over that working by eye can make it a crap shoot making sure you don't overshoot diffusion and end up with a puddle.

One word of caution--since you work mokume at low temps, it's VERY easy to become absent minded and just reach for it.
Likewise, since it works fairly like clay, don't get over zealous and work it too long--pause to heat and anneal.

Have fun, but be warned--it's as addictive as damascus. I've stuff set aside to make a separate miniforge/foundry just for mokume and other nonferrous alloys.
 
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I would recommend cold forging. either cut make grooves dimples etc. and forge flat or forge surface uneven and file flat to pattern. heat and quench to anneal whenever it starts to work harden.
 
Amazon has 9 used starting at $499:eek: I got one of Ian Ferguson's book for $27 and there is one other used copy left on Amazon for like $37
 
Ed Braun said:
Ian Ferguson's book covers a lot that Midgett only alludes to or assumes the reader knows.

Stacy's description of a press will work well--I'm in the process of building something a little more robust personally despite having used a similar setup.
Only thing I would add is to go the 1/2" and use carriage bolts.

The thing about the press isn't just compression for the stack, but rather to initiate the welding/diffusion as both the copper and NS will swell as they come through shift transformation.

In prepping the stack, sand each piece in the stack to about 220 and then wash thoroughly using just a light dish soap and water before pickling the plates.

Prep your foil wrap by applying whiteout to the foil, then strips of newspaper on top of the whiteout.
The newspaper and white out will keep the stack from sticking to the pack.

To make keeping the stack in line and without getting finger oils/sweat on it trying to fold it in the packet, I've taken to wrapping in parchment paper--dabbing a bit of water on the folds seals the envelope.

Since the stuff you're working is about 1/16, try a small stack first--8 or so layers.
Trust me--13 layers is a PITA, and anything over that working by eye can make it a crap shoot making sure you don't overshoot diffusion and end up with a puddle.

One word of caution--since you work mokume at low temps, it's VERY easy to become absent minded and just reach for it.
Likewise, since it works fairly like clay, don't get over zealous and work it too long--pause to heat and anneal.

Have fun, but be warned--it's as addictive as damascus. I've stuff set aside to make a separate miniforge/foundry just for mokume and other nonferrous alloys.
Click to expand...

I agree with the Ian Ferg... book, its got great details and photos, showing combos of every metal and patina combo
It gives specs like temps rather than eyeballing.
It's cheap too, some of the other books are out of print and in the hundreds $ too.

Why carriage bolts?
They are only a grade 2 bolt and usually galvanized - zinc plated.
The only advantage is you gain some stack thickness with that low head height.


I don't know if the galvanizing has any bad effect because I'vs always skipped it
, but it seems to me that it may.

I think that grade 8, or hex socket cap screws uncoated, with a black ozide coating, or stainless make more sense
although stainless screws aren't as strong as a grade 8, they last longer in the heat


http://mokume-gane.com/documents/SantaFePaper.pdf
 
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Great information guys, I think I'm going to take this all the way!

I practiced some forging yesterday and tried to make some from scratch as well. It all went pretty well and was a lot of fun. I need to get my pickle pot going again, I am looking for a big crock pot this time... that and checking the scrapyard for some 1/2" steel.
 
ib2v4u said:
Amazon has 9 used starting at $499:eek: I got one of Ian Ferguson's book for $27 and there is one other used copy left on Amazon for like $37
Click to expand...

Wow. When I checked the price about 6months ago they were going for $200-250 used, now its $500+. I was going to buy a second copy(until I saw the 3 figure price..) as a coffee table book when I'm over here in Asia. Now I'm thinking of having my copy thats in storage in the US dug up and sold.

Edit: Btw not only is it informative, but it is a beautiful book....glossy, color, lots of pics.
 
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