Need an all-around knife recommendation.

Noctis3880

Noctis3880

Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
11,409
First, I tend to judge a knife by steel above all else, and I believe I'm right in this regard(so far).
Second is knife geometry/shape.
Last is ergonomics or handle/knife design.

I would typically use the knife for cutting cardboard and various fruits/vegetables for my day job. I expect to cut nothing "tougher" than the stalk of a corn, which is like wet wood. I live in Hawaii, so the humid environment and my work with produce makes corrosion a very real threat to knives.

I've had one knife with S30V and one with ZDP-189. The S30V is certainly a step up from the cheap $10 knives, but not by far. Edge rolling seems to be an occasional problem if taken to extremes, and push cut ability seems to be far less than ZDP. The ZDP has a surprising tendency to chip when cutting off corn stalks or if I accidentally scrap it on metal without significant pressure, edge rolling will also occur if significant pressure is applied, however it seems to take a far keener edge than S30V and was noticeably more difficult to lower the angle on the blade(took well over 6 hours with a 120 grit coarse stone on the EdgePro Apex). However, again because of humidity and produce work, rust became an immediate problem after a few hours of use, and the Tuf Cloth coating seemed to rub off very easily.

My first choice would be CPM-S110V for the increased vanadium and carbon content, making it more wear resistant and harder than S30V, and significantly better corrosion resistance over ZDP. However the rarity of the steel in knives limits the selection to the Kershaw Shallot, the only ones available are all combo edges, which I've found to be extremely useless in a knife, as my S30V knife also has a combo edge.

My second choice would be S90V, which I see as a middle-ground between S30V and S110V.

Oh, and I'd like to keep the price tag under $150, as I don't want to cry over it for a month if it broke for some reason(say, if I dropped it).
 
Noctis3880 said:
First, I tend to judge a knife by steel above all else, and I believe I'm right in this regard(so far).
Click to expand...

You choose your knives based on steel type first? You're ignoring batch variations and heat treat. I'd take a properly heat treated blade using a less prestigious steel over a less well treated blade from an expensive exotic.

You should give your other criteria more weight. To me a knife's shape determines its suitability to specific tasks - any benefits after that are a bonus. I firmly believe in convex grinds for heavy-use blades and some of the problems you encountered would be less likely had you chosen such a blade style - another reason not to place steel type in #1 position

If corrosion is such an issue I suggest one of the high nitrogen steels like H1, 14C28N or X15-TN. I live in a high humidity area too and knife rust is not a problem even with my carbon steel knives - but I do take the time and care to look after them properly.

You didn't specifiy folder or fixed blade, or what size knife you are comfortable with. My ideal knife for cardboard and also suitable for the other the tasks you outlined is the convex ground BRKT T.U.S.K. - but I acknowledge not everyone likes this style. http://www.knivesshipfree.com/T.U.S.K.

Its a tool steel but I've never had rust problems with mine - but I do keep it properly maintained - and it's easy to keep razor sharp with a quick strop on leather. If used heavily, all it will need is an occasional touchup on 2000 W&D over mousemat.
 
after using knives with a wide variety of steels my conclusion is that geometry and ergonomics are more important than steel type as long as heat treatment has been done correctly.
geometry dictates what type of cutting is optimal for that blade and if a knife is not comfortable in hand while being used, you won't want to use it.
much of the touted advantages of expensive steels is marketing hype more than real world experience. and there is always a trade-off. for every advantage offered, there is another aspect of the steel's performance that is somewhat compromised.
an example often mentioned is a Buck in 420HC. an older 'low end' steel but sharpens and holds well due to optimal heat treatment. for most of us our real world cutting needs do not exceed this steel's ability.
roland
 
Find a Swedish tourist. Ask him if he can send you a "Morakniv" or two. It is pronounced something like MooreaKneev. It is the everyday knife for almost all handyworkers in Sweden and everyone in Sweden has at least one. they sell for about 30 SEK/ 4 USD and have been around forever. Usually people dont sharpen a Mora, they just take a new one. Cheap clones cost almost nothing and real ones can be bought here by the bucket of 50.

They are usually carbon steel, but who cares if it gets dull. take a new one. Some models can be bought in stainless as well and are very popular with the survival/bushcraft/hunter people.
 
rprocter said:
after using knives with a wide variety of steels my conclusion is that geometry and ergonomics are more important than steel type as long as heat treatment has been done correctly.
geometry dictates what type of cutting is optimal for that blade and if a knife is not comfortable in hand while being used, you won't want to use it.
much of the touted advantages of expensive steels is marketing hype more than real world experience.
Click to expand...

VERY well said! :thumbup:
 
rprocter said:
after using knives with a wide variety of steels my conclusion is that geometry and ergonomics are more important than steel type as long as heat treatment has been done correctly.
geometry dictates what type of cutting is optimal for that blade and if a knife is not comfortable in hand while being used, you won't want to use it.
much of the touted advantages of expensive steels is marketing hype more than real world experience. and there is always a trade-off. for every advantage offered, there is another aspect of the steel's performance that is somewhat compromised.
an example often mentioned is a Buck in 420HC. an older 'low end' steel but sharpens and holds well due to optimal heat treatment. for most of us our real world cutting needs do not exceed this steel's ability.
roland
Click to expand...
It's been well impressed upon me by others that heat treatment is of the utmost importance, but how exactly can you tell if a knife is "properly" heat treated? Who exactly sells "correctly" heat treated knives?

I know for a fact that most knife makers never heat treat their steels to "be all they can be". I doubt my S30V and ZDP-189 are heat treated for optimal performance.

And so that's why I choose steel type above all else. There's no real guarantee that the steel in the knife I buy is going to be properly heat treated, which is why I try to pick out something that's more "controlled" or predictable, which is the properties of the steel itself.

Custom made knives typically cost well over $300 for a fixed blade knife, folders could cost somewhere in the $500 range. I personally prefer folding knives for pocket carry and subtlety. At $500 for 3-4 inches of steel, I'd much rather buy a sword for that price tag.

Also, higher end steel has more "potential". If I were to buy a knife in 440C and another in S110V and had both of them heat treated by someone else for optimal performance, I'm pretty sure the S110V will outperform the 440C by far.

Of course, I currently don't have any idea who does a reliable heat treat and if their price will be worth it(I personally don't want to spend $200 to pay for a heat treat on a knife that cost me $75).

The H-1 steel sounds nice, but rust is only a moderate problem, as my S30V shows no signs of corrosion. The humidity should only prove to be a problem if I were to leave my knife lying around for over a year without ever touching it, which is also easily remedied with a light coating of wax.
 
Perhaps an S90V Spyderco Mule. It's a fixed blade and comes with no handle, but a few feet of parachord can solve that, and for only 70 bucks, the price is tough to beat.
 
Quote: "It's been well impressed upon me by others that heat treatment is of the utmost importance, but how exactly can you tell if a knife is "properly" heat treated? Who exactly sells "correctly" heat treated knives?"
you cannot tell by looking but only with use can one suspect a heat-treat problem. a recent thread here in BF discussed heat treatment. the overwhelming response was that it has become a non-issue. i.e. whether you buy a $10 knife or an expensive one, improper heat treatment is extremely rare.
and: "I know for a fact that most knife makers never heat treat their steels to "be all they can be"." Really ? please elaborate on this "fact".
and finally:"If I were to buy a knife in 440C and another in S110V and had both of them heat treated by someone else for optimal performance, I'm pretty sure the S110V will outperform the 440C by far." Nope ! largely marketing hype. "outperform" needs to be defined as there are numerous different types of performance. perhaps a "steel expert" can chime in here and explain the downside of S110V. 440C is an excellent knife steel because it has a good balance of the qualities required. it is used by many very knowledgeable, highly regarded custom knifemakers for this reason.
to me real world useage is more important than theoretical advantages.
just what do you plan to do that will so exceed 440C's abilities ?
i do a lot of "landscaping the mountainside bush" type work and lots of hunting, so my knives get used for a variety of types of cutting. i have examples of most steels(because when i first began collecting i was really into "the steel"), but i do not have any in S110V.
440C works just fine. the only steel i have had poor experience with is S30V(chipping way too easily, that's it's trade-off).
to repeat: if the blade geometry and ergonomics are to my liking and the steel is 440C, i do not hestiate whatsoever in buying the knife.
roland
 
Get a Spyderco Mule in any steel you like. This knife excels in all categories you mention. The blade steels are some of the best available. The blade grind is nice and thin; (this knife is for cutting, not prying). The handle can be made to fit your hand perfectly in any material you like. Spend the extra money on a sexy handle and sheath.
 
The media you're cutting calls for a thin blade with a thin edge, so I agree that the Mule would be a good choice. In this case the blade profile is every bit as important as steel choice and heat treat, if not moreso. In your case I'd rather use a thin VG-10 blade than a thick S110V.
 
Look into the "Meyerchin" Line of knifes, They are primarily for marine use, and most versions are designed for cutting rope and have serrated, non serrated and combi edges available. The price point is within your stated budget, and although they don't seem to be mentioned often they certainly should be. They offer folding and fixed versions as well.
 
In another forum, Noctis indicated he didn't want a fixed blade, so the Mule idea and such is out.

He is looking for extreme wear resistance and higher than average hardness, i.e. HRc greater than 63.

As KeithAM indicated, a thin blade is "optimal".

So, does anyone know of a production folder that has a thin blade of a steel that offers extreme wear resistance and higher than average hardness?

I'm betting a "Krein" regrind of an existing will be needed, which can almost double the cost of a knife.

Maybe Phil Wilson could retreat a knife blade, but there is the cost issue.
 
Slidetechnik said:
Perhaps an S90V Spyderco Mule. It's a fixed blade and comes with no handle, but a few feet of parachord can solve that, and for only 70 bucks, the price is tough to beat.
Click to expand...

That's a nice call. Or maybe the Temperance- they are going cheaper lately I believe...
 
The Krein regrind is at an average price IMO. However, I've received no e-mail response from Tom ever since I sent him my Endura for a regrind, so that's been bothering me lately.

As for Phil Wilson, I have no clue how much he charges for a heat treat, but I'm pretty sure it'll cost more than a regrind.
 
If I'm pulling a knife out all day long I want a single handed operation. To me that would require an axis lock or at least a liner lock-maybe. When I was doing warehouse work all that was available was the lock backs and that was still a pain. JMO

PS; I would also carry an alox SAK for the saw, awl, and screw driver now that I'm aware of the quality. BTW I want something I can sharpen fast so forget the exotic steel.
 
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