Need help with a guilt trip

[oldschool45]

After 7 year of having a rescue dog I am forced to return her. She lives in the house but isn’t part of the family. I doubt seriously that she can be hose broken. When we got her from rescue she weighed ½ of what she should have and was missing more than half of her coat. When the family is in a room together she goes and hides under the master bed. She won’t have anything to do with my 5 year old in fact she becomes more social after he goes to bed. We were kenneling her to keep her from defecating in the house but that didn’t stop her from pissing on the master bed and living room floor. The dog has no medical issues so it isn’t a UTI or something. What it is is how she was treated before we got her from rescue. I hope I am letting her go to find a better life than the breathing, eating & pissing she is doing now. I don’t have the virtue of sainthood, there is only so many puddles of Corgi piss and bed sheets that have to be laundered and replaced when you’re dead tired that 1 person can take before it is time to do something different.
Sorry about the rambling.
Karda if this is in the wrong place please lock it down , don’t move it.

 

[Steve Tall]

Hey there oldschool45, good to hear from you again. I think you're brave to go public with what you're feeling guilty about. What's most striking to me is that it's been 7 years (and not, say, 7 months). It's not like you didn't keep trying. Seems like a tough call when it involves the whole family dynamics. Maybe the corgi rescue place will find a situation for her that suits her better.

 

[Howard Wallace]

7 years is a long time.

Don't worry about this being the right place to post. It is.

 

[James0723]

I have a German Shepherd/Terrier mix rescue dog. Someone dumped him off in a vacant lot behind our house and he showed up at our doorstep. He is around 10 years old and we've already paid almost a thousand dollars to have some fatty tumors removed from him even knowing that he is going to die in a few years anyway. We don't have a fenced in yard and I have to take him outside and walk him several times a day so he doesn't pee and defecate in the house, even then he still goes in the house sometimes and I have to clean it up. I also work around 40 hours a week.

So, don't think I don't know where you're coming from when I say that if you take your rescue dog back you should feel guilty. That's a terrible thing to do, it would have been better had you never adopted it all than to take it for seven years and then abandon it again. It seems like you're taking the easy way out. You could make time to take care of your dog if you really wanted to. I see you have racked up over a 1000 posts on this forum but you say you don't have time to take to take your dog out to use the bathroom? In my opinion, you made a commitment to the dog when you adopted it, and now you must honor that commitment and try to make the dog's life as good as possible. I think you shouldn't kennel her either, why don't you try treating your dog like a living creature instead of an inconvenient object, if you did you would start to see how fun having a dog is and be glad to have her. But I am serious when I say, that if you abandon your rescue dog after seven years you are no better than the scum who abandoned her in the first place. Is that really who you want to be? You're not a man if you do that.

 

[Howard Wallace]

Let's keep this respectful.

I have had several dogs. One I got as a pup. He was quite agressive and protective of our family. Try as I might, I was not able to socialize him. I tried for some time. We kept him in the house and fenced yard, but he was often able to escape and terrorize the neighborhood children. This was at a time when I had no steady job and a young family to support.

I put him down myself.

I dreamed about it for some time.

 

[oldschool45]

Thanks all especially James!
Hubris can be a painful thing if you are honest with yourself. I hate idiots who tout their qualifications on these boards but let’s just say for arguments sake my wife and I have some education and experience in behavior modification. I’ll email Howard copies of the sheepskins and pictures in hoods if anybody wants to argue the point. I have tried every form of positive operant conditioning that I know, with this dog and I still can’t house break her. My unprofessional conclusion is that she needs to be an outside or farm dog and that she would be happier someplace other than this household. Is it fair that it took me 7 years to reach that conclusion and take action? No. That’s why it’s painful and I’m feeling guilty about it.
James thanks for writing in open forum what I have been feeling but no one has had the balls to say to my face:thumbup: That’s just what I need to incorporate the experience and move on.
I’m not airing this out here for support or to justify my actions. But a couple of things to consider, she wasn’t abandoned she was abused (through neglect). When you get an animal formally through rescue and not the Pound or a Shelter you have some interesting paperwork pertaining to what you can do with the animal. For instance I could not legally have found her another home on my own (see the Ellen DeGeneres fiasco). Not knocking breed rescues but “not my thing anymore.” I love this dog dearly but keeping her isn’t in her or my family’s best interest.

 

[Howard Wallace]

The ethical and moral questions are the important ones. They are seldom easy.

Urination on the bed is interesting. My dog Billy was with our family for many years. When my first wife left he used to sleep on the floor beside my bed. Later, when Red Flower joined our family, Billy started to hop up on the bed. On one occassion he urinated on the bed, which he had never done before. The family dynamics were in flux, and he was trying to assert his position. We had to make it clear to him what that position was. He soon adjusted and we had no more problems.

Perhaps someone who understands "pack" dynamics better than I do can speculate on the causes of continuing urination on the bed. The defecation issue may be related.

 

[awh]

yeah you made it 7 years... maybe hire a dog trainer to help.

 

[moogoogaidan]

So, don't think I don't know where you're coming from when I say that if you take your rescue dog back you should feel guilty. That's a terrible thing to do, it would have been better had you never adopted it all than to take it for seven years and then abandon it again. It seems like you're taking the easy way out. You could make time to take care of your dog if you really wanted to. I see you have racked up over a 1000 posts on this forum but you say you don't have time to take to take your dog out to use the bathroom? In my opinion, you made a commitment to the dog when you adopted it, and now you must honor that commitment and try to make the dog's life as good as possible. I think you shouldn't kennel her either, why don't you try treating your dog like a living creature instead of an inconvenient object, if you did you would start to see how fun having a dog is and be glad to have her. But I am serious when I say, that if you abandon your rescue dog after seven years you are no better than the scum who abandoned her in the first place. Is that really who you want to be? You're not a man if you do that.

Hey James, as much as you don't agree with oldschool's decision, I don't agree with your attitude. He made an effort -- an honest effort -- and he couldn't make progress on the dog. Social Darwinism should prevail here. As emotional as you might be, it's better for all the world to not waste time and resources on anything that negatively affects what you love, especially family and friends. Of course I also believe in swift and efficient capital punishment for murderers and rapists, but I'm sure you'd rather keep paying $45,000+ a year to give such cancers to society three hots and a cot for the rest of their lives. Whether it's pets that can't be integrated into the home, humans who can't be integrated into society, delinquents who can't be integrated into a productive classroom, or incompetent people who can't be integrated into the workplace, there's an elastic line that exists where investing beyond to help a straggler simply isn't logical anymore. The human body can't thrive if malignant cancers aren't removed. Society is the same.

 

[Abaniko]

Sheesh, the tone of this thread is getting sub-standard quick...Howabout passing a little compassion around for ALL those involved?

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Oldschool: In my opinion, you've invested 7 years in the dog. At this point, you'd be taking it from what it's become used to and adding another major trauma to its life. You really should have made this decision much earlier in the cycle. Personally, I'd adapt around the dog and keep it. I don't know how many more years it has, but probably less than its already lived.

Being neglected previously, it's going to be very possessive of anything it perceives as its property. If the neglect happened young enough, it's imprinted on the dog and you're not going to train it out. The pissing on the bed and floor is a way of marking what it considers its own.

Do you have a decent dog house in the kennel? As long as it has a good dog house (i.e. big enough, enough insulation (cedar chips and such) for cold weather and a sheltered place with enough food and water, kenneling is not a bad thing. I' ve had dogs I had to kennel before and they lived long, happy lives. They were allowed in the house when we were up and about, and stayed in the kennels at night and when at work. Dogs can only be trained so far. At some point you have to be smarter than the dog and adapt to it.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Hey James, as much as you don't agree with oldschool's decision, I don't agree with your attitude. He made an effort -- an honest effort -- and he couldn't make progress on the dog. Social Darwinism should prevail here. As emotional as you might be, it's better for all the world to not waste time and resources on anything that negatively affects what you love, especially family and friends. Of course I also believe in swift and efficient capital punishment for murderers and rapists, but I'm sure you'd rather keep paying $45,000+ a year to give such cancers to society three hots and a cot for the rest of their lives. Whether it's pets that can't be integrated into the home, humans who can't be integrated into society, delinquents who can't be integrated into a productive classroom, or incompetent people who can't be integrated into the workplace, there's an elastic line that exists where investing beyond to help a straggler simply isn't logical anymore. The human body can't thrive if malignant cancers aren't removed. Society is the same.

Well, IFF you apply that across the board, you'd have a point, albeit, IMO, not a good one. Thinking like this is what leads to genocide. If you don't apply it across the board, then you are being capricious.

I think the idea of "social Darwinism" is a bad one, although it certainly would have made my life easier if I was allowed to apply it.

Think on the repercussions before endorsing it.

 

[oldschool45]

If the behavior was something that was even vaguely repeatable could be seen to be corrected. This would have been “fixed” 6 years ago. Corgi’s are not stupid animals even abused ones can figure out that if you piss where the pack leader sleeps bad things will happen to you. So she never did it when we could see her doing it. And yes I spent considerable time making sure it was the Corgi and not the Lhasa Apso. Howard I have a vague suspicion that the bed wetting was some kind of jealousy issue with the other dog but that doesn’t account for the puddles in the living room. She was so neglected and abused that even being shown how to “play” with toys in a house full of them she never would.
Cpl. I could provide “3 squares and a roof” till she dies of natural causes. I don’t do outside dogs to me if they aren’t underfoot they aren’t part of the family. The easy decision is to do nothing but I’m making myself miserable and risking her happiness on the chance that she will have a better 2nd half.
There is a reason why nobody ever discusses the easy decisions.

 

[James0723]

Hey James, as much as you don't agree with oldschool's decision, I don't agree with your attitude. He made an effort -- an honest effort -- and he couldn't make progress on the dog. Social Darwinism should prevail here. As emotional as you might be, it's better for all the world to not waste time and resources on anything that negatively affects what you love, especially family and friends. Of course I also believe in swift and efficient capital punishment for murderers and rapists, but I'm sure you'd rather keep paying $45,000+ a year to give such cancers to society three hots and a cot for the rest of their lives. Whether it's pets that can't be integrated into the home, humans who can't be integrated into society, delinquents who can't be integrated into a productive classroom, or incompetent people who can't be integrated into the workplace, there's an elastic line that exists where investing beyond to help a straggler simply isn't logical anymore. The human body can't thrive if malignant cancers aren't removed. Society is the same.

What does executing criminals have to do with a man abandoning his dog that he chose to get in the first place? Seven years ago no less. Are you actually comparing the dog in this situation to a criminal that needs executing? I honestly don't understand how your little rant about capital punishment has anything to do with the situation.

That is what I think is puzzling most of us, oldskool45, the fact that you have had this dog for seven years and now want to get rid of it. Why did you chose to get the dog in the first place? You decided to get the dog, it is your dog now and you need to have some responsibility. I understand that you have a little kid, and another dog, and that your bed got pissed on, but you chose this and to just throw your dog away like that because it's become an inconvenience would be really selfish.

If you can find a good home for it by all means do it, but as I found out when my mutt showed up on my doorstep not many places will take dogs these days. Since the recession the number of abandoned animals has risen by around 25%. I called every humane non-kill shelter I could, they were all full to capacity and no one would take the dog, the only place that would is the county shelter and they would have killed it after a week and I wasn't about to do that. The drugs they inject the dogs with to kill them aren't painless, if you ever watch it happen you'll see, it is a horrible spasmodic death. Since your dog is a purebreed you may have a chance of finding some place to take it, but it is older and nobody wants old dogs.

Out of the 1 dog and 3 cats I have we only chose to get 1 of the cats. The other two cats and the dog were abandoned, the two cats were left when some people on my street moved away. Don't be one of those people, don't pass the buck on your responsibility because then someone else will have to deal with it. Why don't you try to spend more time with the dog and take it on walks? Then maybe you would start to like it better.

 

[moogoogaidan]

Well, IFF you apply that across the board, you'd have a point, albeit, IMO, not a good one. Thinking like this is what leads to genocide. If you don't apply it across the board, then you are being capricious.

I think the idea of "social Darwinism" is a bad one, although it certainly would have made my life easier if I was allowed to apply it.

Think on the repercussions before endorsing it.

Hey Cpl, I understand my position is a bit extreme, but I'm comfortable with it. I don't necessarily think that at its spirit it can be applied to genocide since the idea of cutting the fat refers to individuals, not peoples. I'm not a believer of putting up with not only unproductive but harmful aspects of life just because of guilt borne from ethics (largely the Judeo-Christian ethics that shape the Western perspective). Applied to this specific example, oldschool was burdening himself and his family with a dog who, despite oldschool's best efforts for 7 years, could not be housebroken or socialized. He's obviously guilty about his choice, but he made the right one.

 

[James0723]

You sound like a 15 year old who just read Nietzsche for the first time moogoogaidan.

What do you consider harmful and unproductive? I think a man who decides on his own free will to get a dog then seven years later wants to throw it away for someone else to deal with is pretty unproductive for society, if I do say so myself.

And what about you? Why are you on a forum at a time when any productive member of society would be working? I guess we should send you to the gas chamber since you, by your own definition, are a cancer of society. Got to love the irony that all these folks who talk about social darwinsim and getting others out of the gene pool would be the first to go if such a policy were ever actually implemented.

 

[moogoogaidan]

What does executing criminals have to do with a man abandoning his dog that he chose to get in the first place? Seven years ago no less. Are you actually comparing the dog in this situation to a criminal that needs executing? I honestly don't understand how your little rant about capital punishment has anything to do with the situation.

Hey James, they're both examples of a rational choice: getting rid of parasitic elements of life or society that are unproductive and serve no function. I apologize if that sounds callous, especially with how many animal lovers there are on this forum, but I'm striving to remain as unbiased as possible. Please don't interpret "parasitic" as needlessly antagonistic. It's not -- I'm using the strict definition of the term.

 

[moogoogaidan]

You sound like a 15 year old who just read Nietzsche for the first time moogoogaidan.

What do you consider harmful and unproductive? I think a man who decides on his own free will to get a dog then seven years later wants to throw it away for someone else to deal with is pretty unproductive for society, if I do say so myself.

And what about you? Why are you on a forum at a time when any productive member of society would be working? I guess we should send you to the gas chamber since you, by your own definition, are a cancer of society. Got to love the irony that all these folks who talk about social darwinsim and getting others out of the gene pool would be the first to go if such a policy were ever actually implemented.

Hey James, what's with the character assassination? I'm actually a science teacher on summer break. What do you do?

As a lover of science, you can hopefully understand how I might make decisions based on efficiency and not a bleeding heart, such as what motivates your choices. And stop being so polarizing in your characterization of oldschool -- obviously his decisions aren't based fleetingly on whims. Seven years is a long time to try to help an animal out. Damn proud of his efforts. I've been fortunate to get to know him a little and I know he's a good guy.

 

[Howard Wallace]

Threads where we can talk about the difficult decisions that face us are of great value. Let's not trash it with disrespectful remarks. None of the mods want to start slapping infractions on posters here. Don't force our hands.

Below are some highlighted statements that are problematic in terms of the standards of this forum. Please do not continue in this manner.

Last request.

I have a German Shepherd/Terrier mix rescue dog. Someone dumped him off in a vacant lot behind our house and he showed up at our doorstep. He is around 10 years old and we've already paid almost a thousand dollars to have some fatty tumors removed from him even knowing that he is going to die in a few years anyway. We don't have a fenced in yard and I have to take him outside and walk him several times a day so he doesn't pee and defecate in the house, even then he still goes in the house sometimes and I have to clean it up. I also work around 40 hours a week.

So, don't think I don't know where you're coming from when I say that if you take your rescue dog back you should feel guilty. That's a terrible thing to do, it would have been better had you never adopted it all than to take it for seven years and then abandon it again. It seems like you're taking the easy way out. You could make time to take care of your dog if you really wanted to. I see you have racked up over a 1000 posts on this forum but you say you don't have time to take to take your dog out to use the bathroom? In my opinion, you made a commitment to the dog when you adopted it, and now you must honor that commitment and try to make the dog's life as good as possible. I think you shouldn't kennel her either, why don't you try treating your dog like a living creature instead of an inconvenient object, if you did you would start to see how fun having a dog is and be glad to have her. But I am serious when I say, that if you abandon your rescue dog after seven years you are no better than the scum who abandoned her in the first place. Is that really who you want to be? You're not a man if you do that.

Hey James, as much as you don't agree with oldschool's decision, I don't agree with your attitude. He made an effort -- an honest effort -- and he couldn't make progress on the dog. Social Darwinism should prevail here. As emotional as you might be, it's better for all the world to not waste time and resources on anything that negatively affects what you love, especially family and friends. Of course I also believe in swift and efficient capital punishment for murderers and rapists, but I'm sure you'd rather keep paying $45,000+ a year to give such cancers to society three hots and a cot for the rest of their lives. Whether it's pets that can't be integrated into the home, humans who can't be integrated into society, delinquents who can't be integrated into a productive classroom, or incompetent people who can't be integrated into the workplace, there's an elastic line that exists where investing beyond to help a straggler simply isn't logical anymore. The human body can't thrive if malignant cancers aren't removed. Society is the same.

You sound like a 15 year old who just read Nietzsche for the first time moogoogaidan.

What do you consider harmful and unproductive? I think a man who decides on his own free will to get a dog then seven years later wants to throw it away for someone else to deal with is pretty unproductive for society, if I do say so myself.

And what about you? Why are you on a forum at a time when any productive member of society would be working? I guess we should send you to the gas chamber since you, by your own definition, are a cancer of society. Got to love the irony that all these folks who talk about social darwinsim and getting others out of the gene pool would be the first to go if such a policy were ever actually implemented.

Hey James, what's with the character assassination? I'm actually a science teacher on summer break. What do you do?

As a lover of science, you can hopefully understand how I might make decisions based on efficiency and not a bleeding heart, such as what motivates your choices. And stop being so polarizing in your characterization of oldschool -- obviously his decisions aren't based fleetingly on whims. Seven years is a long time to try to help an animal out. Damn proud of his efforts. I've been fortunate to get to know him a little and I know he's a good guy.

 

[Abaniko]

Again, why all the hostility here? Y'all need to chill a bit. Personally, this neo Ayn Rand thing grates mes, but so does name calling. I respect anybody who goes to great lengths to rescue animals. It is the Right Thing to do. Whatever you decide to do, talk to a good vet. County animal shelters are places to be rescued from, not returned to. The Vet has a perspective and expertise on the humane answers, particularly the hardest ones. Good luck.
Altruism is always the right answer, There, my cards are on the table. Rail away at my social weakness, if you must