Need some advice with 'practice'

Justin.Mercier

Justin.Mercier

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Oct 21, 2006
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So this may sound like a dumb question... it certainly sounds that way to me when I read it myself. But... I'm seeking some serious advice from some of you experienced makers out there with a lot of knives under your belt. I've now been into bladesmithing for just about two and a half years, but in that time have only finished 12 blades. Far too few to consider myself anything but a seasoned beginner, and so few that I struggle with "basic" things. For example this last week I cracked and destroyed a nice set of figured cocobola scales that I was putting on a blade when putting the pins through. Chalk it up to inexperience. Right now I try my best on each blade to do the best that my current skill will allow, but i'm taking almost 10 weeks or so per blade, given my normal free time to work in my shop and whatnot.

So my question is, should I, for the immediate time being, lower my own personal expectations and produce a much larger number of lesser finish / not as good as I 'could' do blades of various styles with various handle types untill I've made a few dozen more finished knives to gain experience faster with various techniques like soldering bolsters and guards, fitting pins and the like, and then once i've made and learned from the 'newbie' mistakes, go back to doing the best i can? Or should I stick to my glacially slow pace (exacerbated by the time it takes to fix the mistakes that I'm making due to inexperience) and keep doing the best I can on each new blade and just deal with the problems as they arise?

With the handle scale problem for example, I know what I did wrong now, after the fact, that caused the scale to split. And i'm redoing the handle currently using the method that Stacy posted a few weeks ago in response to someone else's question, because I see the order of steps that he uses minimize the risk of cracking scales due to a slightly too tight pin hole. I'd probably have run into this problem much much sooner if I were "pumping out" a number of blades, instead of just trying to finish this one knife before the NCCA show this next weekend (and getting set back almost a week in the process by my mistakes)

Anyhow, if you can share your perspectives and advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

-Justin
 
Justin, I have even less experience than you but this is what I will try. Making the exact same basic knife until I get to something I am happy with. Then either try and add features to this knife and get them right too or move to another model/type altogether. I realize that I waste an awful amount of time making a different knife each time and forgetting lots of what I've learned when I switch type.

Looking forward to what the seasoned makers have to say about your question, thanks.

Pat
 
Justin.Mercier said:
So my question is, should I, for the immediate time being, lower my own personal expectations and produce a much larger number of lesser finish / not as good as I 'could' do blades of various styles with various handle types untill I've made a few dozen more finished knives to gain experience faster with various techniques like soldering bolsters and guards, fitting pins and the like, and then once i've made and learned from the 'newbie' mistakes, go back to doing the best i can? Or should I stick to my glacially slow pace (exacerbated by the time it takes to fix the mistakes that I'm making due to inexperience) and keep doing the best I can on each new blade and just deal with the problems as they arise?


Anyhow, if you can share your perspectives and advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

-Justin
Click to expand...
Justin , you ALWAYS make a knife as good as you can . Making the mistakes is all part of the learning process . Don't try and rush it .
 
NEVER lower your personal expectations. Think "quality" not "quantity".

Learn something from each blade you make (you will know where the mistakes are, even if they are not evident to someone else). Make a mental note (or a written note) on what you will do different on the next one.

Do the best you can regardless of how long it takes. Over time, your speed will increase, but get the quality down first. You will eventually feel confident enough to try new things.

Always pay close attention to detail. Use quality materials and nail the grind and heat-treat. From there "Fit and Finish" is next most important.

When a person buys a new car, they want everything nice and clean. They want the doors and windows to open and close to perfection. Nevermind that in 3 weeks they will be driving through rain, sleet, and snow and that new car will be "used".

Make them right and make them "pretty". Everything else will fall into place.

Robert
 
I've said this to a number of people in the last week....there are many folks out there right now who are trying to get ready for their ABS JS or MS test.....and are feeling the pressure, mostly that they put on themselves.

The FASTEST way to make a knife is SLOWLY. Take your time, think things out, and be aware that things ARE going to go wrong....its just part of what we do. Make each knife to the very best of your current abilities. The only person your competing with is the man in the mirror. If, at the end of the day, you can look at the man in the mirror, and honestly tell him that you have done the very best you could that day...then nobody else has anything to say about it.

After 20+ years of doing this, I still make mistakes every day that I walk into my shop, some are minor, others are major.
The difference between a "knifemaker" and a "good knifemaker" is knowing how to minimize or hide your mistakes. That only comes with time and experience. Drive, desire, and dedication/time are the key elements in what we do...... The drive to do it, the desire to do it to the very best of your abilities, and the dedication to take the time to make it so.

Ever go to a show and wonder why most of the top makers only have a few pieces on their tables? Thats becasue its more important to make it right, than to make it many... and making it right takes TIME.
I often chuckle when I read posts where a Maker brags about being able to make a knife in just a couple/few hours. That tells me that the individual is more concerned about quantity than quality. Thats OK if mediocrity is the goal...and some make a decent living at it, but thats not my goal. I strive to make each knife better than the last, in all the ways I can, and I honestly expect that I will NEVER make a "perfect" knife....its all about the journey...not the destination.
 
The plan today was to solid epoxy the handle and finish off the knife I've been working for the last few days. I was set to do the epoxy and I just couldn't go any further unless I took one step backwards. The blade was running a little off eyeball center and I just had to make the correction. The biggest part of knife making is being able to fix your mistakes. Don't worry how long it takes you to make your first few knives. You'll get a lot quicker in time or at least it seems that way. The mistakes will happen from time to time.
 
Justin,

A rheemer will make those pins fit just perfectly with normal hand force. They're expensive, so I've standardized my pin sizes. This way I don't have to have a whole set of rheemers. Drill your hole. Then rheem it out. Then the pin, lubed with epoxy will slide in there with much less force.
 
I have much less experience as well but I would say make knives that you like to make.

The other thing I was going to say was that practice makes perfect. and if that holds true, and if you practice making mediocre knives then you may one day make the perfect mediocre knife. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not...
 
Old guitar player's saying: slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Basically, what the gentlemen above said; concentrate on getting it right, speed/efficiency will come when it comes. Rushing creates boo-boo's every time. That applies to pretty much anything in life.
 
Justin,
I have the perfect solution for you! Instead of making one knife at a time, make 12 knives at once. They don't have to be exact duplicates or even close in appearance. Just similar in construction, such as soldered on guards....hidden tang....with one pin through the handle. They could be smaller hunters, larger hunters, large camp or bowie knives. Doesn't matter as long as the guard, handle and butt of the knife are all done with the same construction.

Forge twelve knives of similar construction out, so that you'll be repeating the same steps over and over and over. Don't go to the next step on any one knife, until you've completed the last step to your satisfaction on all twelve of them. You'll be surprised how quickly you'll improve on every particular step of the knifemaking process. You'll see your quality skyrocketing on each step as you get to the last of the twelve. You'll see the number of mistakes you make significantly drop off as you get to that last one, and with the number of mistakes dropping off and your knowledge of knowing exactly what to do as you reach number 12 on each step, you'll see the time to complete each step go down without a drop in quality.

The downside is that you won't be finishing any knives any time soon. However, you will eventually be finishing twelve all at once, which is plenty to take to a show!

I did this about 10 years ago, when I found myself stagnated. My quality wasn't getting any better and I wasn't finishing them any faster. I decided to intensively learn each step in the process. That time period in my knifemaking journey has served me very well over the years.
 
Knifemaking has a long learning curve that requires patience- lots of it. To make good knives, one must first make knives, and many of those will be less than perfect to down right awful. Keep on top of the steel, and keep at it, the good ones are not out of reach.
 
The fact that you're asking how to improve shows the right frame of thought.

Not sure if this works for everyone or just me but bear in mind that I'm a process oriented person. When I was starting out I'd make a single knife at a time and when I'd get to the next one I'd forget some of the learning pains that I had and would repeat the mistakes :mad:. I started making them a couple at a time (because it was more efficient) but I take the batch through as a group until I get to hand rubbing and installing handles/gaurds. For me this allows me to immediately remember earlier mistakes and to "reprogram" and retain the muscle memory.

One thing and I know this is going to sound funny. Write your steps down, then go back and refine the process as you learn new skills. When I shot 3D archery, you'd see some of the top level guys with little laminated cards on their gear. I asked one of them what it was, thought it was some slick distance judging thing or a cheat sheet for the course. Nope, it was their process for the shot. Usually the first line said "BREATHE" or "READ THE CARD" I'm serious, these guys get paid to shoot and shoot 100s of arrows a day had little cards they'd read before every shot.

Just the way I do it, although I don't have a process sheet anymore. I may do that when I get some of the stuff finished on my bench.
 
Will, I need to make a card like that, that says "Don't Force It." I broke a hacksaw blade this afternoon for no good reason :o That's what happens when I don't follow my own advice. :foot:
 
I struggled with a similar question a while back: Make one-offs or do batches.

I honestly feel my learning curve is faster when i replicate a process a few times back-to-back....I seem to get better grinding when im doing 5 blades than doing one blade every few weeks...it obviously also goes a bit faster when youre all set up for a process and can do it five times without having to drag everything out 5 separate times.

One thing I did that I think really helped was to not so much lower expectations but to actually lower the complexity of the knives I was making and INCREASE your expectations. Perhaps try to make a set of 5 small EDCs with basic construction and make them as perfect as you possibly can. Obviously you should always make the best knife you can, but sometimes its easier to focus on doing a few tasks perfectly than a million.

As I told one of my friends, knifemaking is just a million little steps, none of which is very hard. The hard part is stringing together all those tiny steps without making enough mistakes that your knife suffers or you go crazy fixing them.
 
As a follow on to what David just said....

In target archery you do dozens if not hundreds of "blind bag" shooting where you shoot at a arrow bag WITHOUT your sights or actually closing your eyes. This reinforces form without the worry or brainpower being used for actual aiming. Same thing as hitting off of a batting tee or "real" driving practice in golf. Execute the simple knife as well as you think you can then add to the complexity.

Elegant isn't always sparkly and fancy. I'd rather make an elegant knife than a fancy one, that's actually my goal as a maker.
 
Justin,
There is no pride in doing anything half way. I often tell people who I send things to to make me a knife whenever they get the time. It does not have to be anything fancy, but should be the best they are capable of at the time. That is a knife I am proud to own. Some have been wonderful, and some less so, but all were the makers best effort.

I use the batch system. I make a group of blades , usually different types, but sometimes a batch of 10-12 fillet knives.Sometimes two or three is a group, and sometimes it is twenty. Once they are done with forging/grinding etc., I HT the whole batch. Next, I clean up the blade to 400 grit, but don't finish them. I move on to assigning handle materials. Sometimes the handle material I picked out in the pre-blade part will not look right , and I will change it. Often I swap the blocks around until I am happy. I get all the wood/stag/ ivory/micarta prepped, cut, drilled,etc. Once all the handles have been dry fitted to the knives, pins/bolts in place, then I set the handles aside and tend to the blades. Going through the stages in groups will make the process flow easier. The first blade in a step is always the least critical one. If it is a vine chopping machete, it gets the first place. A damascus Bowie will get the last grind. Glue up in batches is also much easier and more time efficient. Final handle grinding/shaping/ sanding/polishing and then final blade finishing .

In each step the first blade goes slower than the last.

Any blade that I don't feel is going right, or that I can't see the final blade in my mind ( sort of hard to explain in words), gets set aside to come back to later. Sometimes later is tomorrow, and sometimes it is in a year or two. I never rush a blade to completion if I don't feel it is ready. I will call a customer and tell him I am not satisfied with the blade yet, and he will have to wait for it. Because I take no up front money, and make no hard promise of completion dates, this is usually fine.

BTW -Once you get to doing swords the whole slow and steady thing really kicks in. Try and go fast and one of two things will happen. You will get hurt, or the sword will get hurt. It hurts less if it is you.

Stacy
 
The batch thing makes a lot of sense, especially when it comes to HT and glue-up. I actually have a batch of waterjet-cut blanks coming from Great Lakes soon. Not necessarily what Stacy meant, but I think the principles apply.
 
Interesting post. I've been thinking about this sort of thing for a while now. I've been tinkering for a little over a year, and have only finished 5 knives in that time. The first one took about a year, but I was still working and was a lot more distracted at the time. I've been off work now for about 6 months, and it's still painfully slow and I often think about why (although I have a lot going on in my life besides just making knives.)

Lately, I've been somewhat successful at putting that out of my mind though, and just focusing on trying to make each knife as good as I can make it, and I feel like momentum is picking up somewhat. Things seem to be getting better AND faster at the same time. I don't know if it's been the right decision or not, but I do think one thing that has perhaps slowed me down somewhat up to now is finishing knives that might have been better set aside or scrapped altogether. Making a halfway decent looking blade out of a basket case has got to take significantly more time than starting with a good foundation, but I need to feel like I am making some progress or I will get bored and frustrated. Some suggest just doing nothing but practicing forging a ton of blanks, or grinding mild steel. I know that's good advise, but I don't know if I would stay interested and motivated long enough to stick with it if I tried it. Now that I say that, now might just be a good time to do it since I've got a few done and under my belt.

Sorry for rambling....I'll shut up now!
 
I am sorry I know I am not an "old pro" but I am going to answer you any way.:D

I do things really darn close to what Stacy said. I just thought I would add some of my thoughts.

One if you buy a bunch of steel in stock removal sizes say 1x1/8 and 1 1/4x5/32 draw up a few simple designs and just go to town grinding them. Steel is cheap and so are belts. Now that you have that sweet grinder coming your going to want to play with it.:thumbup:

you dont have to finish every knife you start.

Its going to take alot more than 12 blades to feel comfortable with the grinder. But once you do feel comfortable and can grind clean bevels finishing those blades will go way faster. This is not so much about making knives fast as it is making the most of the tool. If you grind out 100 knives this year I will bet dollars to doughnuts that you will be amazed at how easy it is to use the grinder at the end of the year.

I also think its a good idea to use lots of micarta at first. If you have a pile of micarta and screw up a scale throw it away. It is way less painfull to throw out a stock removal 6 inch drop point with tan micarta than a 10 inch forged integral with desert ironwood.
I dont even really like micarta:)
 
In a word, NO.

While repetition helps.... IMHO it's more about pertinacity than anything.

Everybody likes to poke at me about my output (which I laugh about just as much as anybody). But I would rather be known for making 10 ultra clean knives than 100 that were just more practice for the next one :)
 
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