need some help guys

V

visionsect

Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
128
Hey everyone. I need a little help here. My wife is teaching 8th grade science and math. She has one student who just refuses to do any work in the class at all because he thinks he will, to put it in his own words "work with metal", and doesn't need to know any science or math for that kind of work. Now there are many other students who have this same attitude and want to enter the same line of work. So...can any of you kind knife-makers and metal workers provide me with some information to provide my wife, so that she could present this info to the kids to disprove their claims? They need to see that they do indeed need science and math.

Just some info. or procedures on when and where you cats apply this form of knowledge...thanks a bunch -Damion
 
That is sad. If by "working with metal" they mean "want to work in a steel warehouse driving a forklift" or something, then I guess they don't need much math or science.
 
Strange attitude. Smiths were the first metallurgists. This is one of the basics of emerging technology.

Anything from locksmithing to auto mechanics requires some scientific knowledge, the more the better, and avoiding math is a sure way to fail at business.

It doesn't matter how well they can work with their hands. If they can't run a business, they won't make the money they should be able to for the effort they put out.
 
Visionsect, she could point out that to work with metal requires knowing the metal's properties in terms of percentage of iron, cobalt, nickel, etc. the melting temperature, when metal fatigue sets in, response to stress, various angles one might bend the metal, how hard can it get? wear resistance? ability to resist chemicals? the makeup of various alloys, what is the best method of welding any given metal, what is TIG welding? what is MIG welding? what is a CNC machine? how is it programmed? what is a program? how much of any given steel will hold a certain amount of weight? this and more all require at the very least basic math and science skills. Perhaps she can have someone who works with metals come into clas and explain some of the complexities to give them an idea of what it entails?
 
These are all great points. Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas presented so far. Please, if anyone else reads these posts, offer your input as well. All of this will be a wealth of information my wife can utilize.

It is so sad to see the shape these kids are falling into by having no discipline or guidance from their parents. Thank you all for your time and effort towards this cause. -Damion
 
If you're in a hundred mile radius of me, I could stop by with a copy of my old Machinists Handbook and show them that to be working with metal they have to know calculus, and there is no way to sharpen a machine tool without figuring the relief angle. Thats just for starters. Wait till they have to set up a CNC mill to hog out a series of cavities to take electrical components.
 
If a kid does badly in school we should be able to beat the parents, since they are responsible. Public spankings. No other words except maybe showing him an empty aluminum can. Your wife can tell him that without an education this is all the metal he will see as he picks them up off the street for change.
 
You all have been wonderful in your assitance. I knew I was in the right place to get some answers. I have a lot of respect for you all posting your comments, because I feel that my wife is trying so hard to reach these children. I agree that we should be able to beat their parents, and at some points I would like to beat the kids too...lol! Their condition is so very poor these days. The next generation will be an interesting thing to experience. I believe it was evident in my generation that our standards were taking a dive. At least I had parents who taught me honor, commitment, and respect...especially for my elders.

Jack knife...thank you for the offer about coming in...too bad I am so far away. The links and advice from the rest of you will be very beneficial. God Bless you all. -Damion
 
I learned algebra from Hot Rod magazine before I got that far in school. Tuned exhaust systems, superchargers, streamlining, brake loading -- you can't do any of that without algebra.
 
Can't work with metal without knowing how to read a tape measure or ruler. As a knifemaker I use simple fractions every day. It's surprising the number of adults I've run across that can read a ruler.
 
I made my living as a carpenter, the master type, for 25 years, a land surveyor for 8. I have been forging knives for six years. I use math as a knife maker ,I used it as a carpenter and as surveyor. If your ambition is to fry burgers for a living, you can maybe skip the math, unless you want to run the register, of course, then you'll have to make change for that big double burger. Learn, boys and girls, if you ever want to be successful at anything. Knowledge is power, Fred
 
You could have him read all the threads like this one we have had:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383394 :D

That may be a little bit much at this point though:rolleyes:


I've held a lot of different jobs, working for a farm, working maintenance for a fairground, construction, knife making, building cabinets, training horses and several others. There hasn't been a single one where I didn't need math. I've done some very hard manual labor, and it still didn't get me out of math and science. These are two fields you just have to know. Being proficient at them, and using your head will make you a more valuable person to hire so that you can pick a job instead of hope one comes up.

When it comes to being a "metal worker" you will deal with materials that are all classified differently. Some by gauge, some by fractional inches, and some by decimal inches. Putting them all together and getting the right dimensions, requires math!
If you're into tool and die or making molds you will be dealing with angles non stop. A mold has to be tapered so that the part comes back out without getting stuck. Drill bits, mills, and tooling are all ground to specific angles. Sine, Cosine, and Tangent will be your 3 best friends. You'll have to know algebra and geometry for sure. Probably calculus in the long run to really do much anymore.
Almost anything you do with steel will require some knowledge of the heat treating process. You have to understand how heat affects steel, so that you can change its properties to the ones you want, and avoid doing things that will change the properties to something you don't want. This involves math, chemistry, and physics. Without math you can't calculate times and temperatures. Without chemistry you can't understand what changes are taking place in the steel. Without physics you can't understand the properties the steel has ( like tensile strength, hardness, and all that good stuff).

Maybe, since there are a number of kids that say they're interested in metal work, your wife could make a few exercises for them that are related to metal work(but are really math and science problems). A marking and measuring assignmentt might be good. Have them lay out a tool gauge, or a part to something. They would have to figure out angles from the edge they are referencing. If there are holes and you give them the dimensions from center to center, they would have to figure out the distance from a reference edge to mark them out. This could be as detailed and difficult as she wants to make it, and doesn't take anything more than a ruler and protractor.
Could also have them estimate materials and pricing for a job. Could be something fairly simple like a welding job. Say you have to weld X number of peices together. Each one takes a 5 inch weld. You want a 1/2 inch bead, which takes 2 passes. So you need 10X inches of weld. A welding rod will give approximately 7 inches of weld. There are # rods, in a lb. How many lbs of rod are needed for the job?
This is what people actually have to figure out in the real world, and there are specific numbers for it. But 8th graders probably don't know them, so she could make up any numbers she wants. Just a matter of putting it into a context they might be interested in.
 
Knowledge is power, knowledge is also fun.

Can you imagine going through life not knowing what's going on around you? At what point do you say, I know enough? I don't want to know anything else, meet another person, taste another food, see another sight?

What you learn in school are the tools that enable you to learn about the real world outside of school and home and the little town you grew up in.

Reading and writing and arithmetic, some history, some science, some music, dance, sports. Then you're a real human being. Even apes poke around and figure out what's good in their neighborhood. Only cattle moan from one blade of grass to another.
 
If you were in Portland I'd say take him down to Powell's City of Books and go the the Technical Building and pick up a few books in the metalworking/metallurgy section, which is pretty large. I saw a book in there that was about 400 pages that dealt just with the subject of metal chips, how and why they were formed, what could be learned from the various aspects of them, etc., etc. I had no idea people went into such depth.

Maybe he should look in on a CAD/CAM operation and see how much technology, math and science is involved in that. Sadly, the good money in the future will go to the button pushers.
 
Just do a search here for heat treating. You will find some discussions on properties and states of metals that wil blow your mind. Metal is just junk unless you know somethig about it, just a tool if you only know a little about it, but can be anything if you know a lot.

I, for one, wish I paid attention in chemistry....it'd sure help.
 
Damion

Various people have already posted lots of good, direct justifications for learning the science and math. I am going to suggest he learns the science and math, even if he feels that he won't actually be using it in his future occupation. The reason is that learning the the science and math will provide excercise for his brain and, hopefully, teach him how to learn.

Any occupation that pays better than minimum wage will require some higher level of mental ability and that mental ability won't just become available because he wished he had it. He has to develop it, over time. He has the opportunity to do it now. It may not be in the form that he likes but it's what he has available to him. He should focus on the result. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't like a lot of the stuff that I have to do at my job but I still go and do it because I want the result, I get money.

Oh yes, asking "would you like fries with that" for the rest of his life won't require him to master math and science either.

Phil
 
I think pretty much all of us agree that math and science skills are a very important adjunct to a full and productive life. The original question asks about how to motivate a child that thinks these, and specifically math, are not necessary for what he, the child, thinks will be his work.

The real challenge here is getting the child to understand the need to do it, not the how to do it. Learning the how to do it should not be difficult for a motivated child. Finding out what motivates the child is the key.

What kind of metal working does he see himself doing? What specific interests does he have now that relates to metal working? Herein lies the key to success in having him undestand the need for math skills.

Developing problems that must be solved based on these interests is one of the surest ways of getting through to him. Challenge him in a way that shows that with the math skills he can be a more succesful and productive metal worker. "Hey, my go cart flipped over and the roll cage broke. Can you weld up a new one for me in chrome molly? I'll pay you for it! Oh, how much stronger is chrome moly anyway?" So, some of the problems become... What are the different strenght factors for different tubing sizes? How much weight savings do you get using chrome moly vs. mild steel for a given strength requirement? What is the cost of the selected materials? How much do you need for the job? How much time will it take to do the work? How much do I need to charge to make a reasonable profit? Make the problems relevent to his interest to show him why he needs to learn it if he wants to be succesful at it.

Allen
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Knowledge is power, knowledge is also fun.

Can you imagine going through life not knowing what's going on around you? At what point do you say, I know enough? I don't want to know anything else, meet another person, taste another food, see another sight?

What you learn in school are the tools that enable you to learn about the real world outside of school and home and the little town you grew up in.

Reading and writing and arithmetic, some history, some science, some music, dance, sports. Then you're a real human being. Even apes poke around and figure out what's good in their neighborhood. Only cattle moan from one blade of grass to another.
Click to expand...
:thumbup:Well said!
 
I wish there was something I could add, but I've worked with metal since I was a preteen and can tell them from experiance that you do indeed need math. You need to be ablet to add and subtract fractions and figure angle, and compound angles, times temps, geomitry, most times in your head and a without a calculator. If your slow on math whatever your working on will take a lot longer to finish. Ask them how to figure the dia. of a piece of pipe, or figure the wieght of a section of steel by squar feet, how to square a simple box type frame, heck there's a ton of math to be used with just a tape measure! I work off shore rite now and math is one of the things that keep use from having train recks. I've got three referance charts on my shop walls for quik conversions of metric, decimal, fraction and number size.

If you have a shop or ag. class send them to it after school or during break for a little hands on from the shop teacher, I'm sure he/she would show them they realy do need math. Or ask the shop teacher to come in and do a little practicle demonstration. Heck have them design on paper a trailer, even as simple a design as a garden trailer requires a good bit of measuring and figuring.

Heck even the old time blacksmith used a lot of math to make his work repeatable
 
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