Need someone to heat treat a blade for me

L

Lukas

Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Messages
382
Hey all,
Just recently, I got around to making my first knife. Its a small utility knife, made of O1, 150 X 35 X 4mm in dimensions. I would need someone to heat treat it for me as I don't have a forge. I can send you a pattern beforehand if you need. The only problem is that I'll be leaving for Europe on July 2nd, and I would need to have the treated blade here about a week before that (If I got the knife back between the 22-25th it would be ideal). I live in Toronto Ontario, so the closer you live to me the better it would be. Any replies will be appreciated.
 
a and m heattreating in missasagua
i have been in there and seen them heat treating a huge batch of knives
also i have sent them 6 or 7 of my own and they do a good job
 
I called them but they said they would just temper the entire knife and not anneal the spine. Also, they gave me a quote of about 40$ which I think is a little high for such a small knife. I'm definitely still considering them though, thanks. By the way, is there an advantage to vacuum heat treating?
 
If it is a small knife, it shouldn't need a soft spine. As long as the knife is HT'd with decarb protection, it is as good as a vacuum HT. All the vacuum does is lower the O2 content in the oven. $40.oo does sound high to me too.
 
I didn't know Allied did Oil Quenching. Anyhow, the price is only high for low numbers. They charge a fixed price for the batch and then (IIRC) only 50 cents a blade. Cryo is extra. They do good work.

If you are looking for differential temper, that is Custom, time consuming work requiring a good degree of skill. It is difficult to to test consistent results because most rockwell testers require a flat surface. It is more art than science and you'd better be willing to pay accordingly - and to trust the experience of the heat treater because, short of destructive testing, you won't likely know how it turned out.

You will post pics when its done right?

Rob!
 
Rob! said:
I didn't know Allied did Oil Quenching. Anyhow, the price is only high for low numbers. They charge a fixed price for the batch and then (IIRC) only 50 cents a blade. Cryo is extra. They do good work.

If you are looking for differential temper, that is Custom, time consuming work requiring a good degree of skill. It is difficult to to test consistent results because most rockwell testers require a flat surface. It is more art than science and you'd better be willing to pay accordingly - and to trust the experience of the heat treater because, short of destructive testing, you won't likely know how it turned out.

You will post pics when its done right?

Rob!
Click to expand...
Hm, so I guess it would make sense to turn out a few more blades and then have them all treated, right?
Of course I will post pictures when its all done, I'd love to hear some feedback and I was gonna send you a few pictures anyways, since this O1 came from you and without it, i'd still be left wondering what kind of steel that old file I had was made of :)
 
Is it possible to treat O1 using a blow torch? And if, how would one go about knowing when critical temp. is reached?
 
Posted by another user, hope it helps:

HEAT TREATING 0-1 TOOL STEEL

1. Preheat oven to 400 deg f.

2. Mount torch in vise. Attach #7 or #8 tip.

3. Tape magnet to torch so it rides close to tip, but in the cold zone.

4. Fill adequate size bucket with old motor oil.

5. Preheat oil to 140 deg f. by dropping in a red hot bolt, or something with
enough mass to heat your oil.

6. Slowly heat the edge portion of your blade until cherry red, and non-magnetic.

7. Quench the edge in oil. Do not swirl until boiling stops. Leave blade in the oil for a few minutes.

8. Remove when just cool enough to touch.

9. Test edge with a file. It should slide right off and not cut. If it doesn’t, repeat the process.

10. Wipe off all oil, and immediately (while still warm), put in kitchen oven for one hour.

11. After 1 hr. remove blade (leave oven on), and allow it to cool to room temp. (takes about 20 minutes).

12. Put knife back in the oven for another hour.

13. Repeat for a total of 3 cycles in the oven.

14. Your blade’s edge is now hardened and tempered to about Rockwell C 60-61. The rest of the knife should be flexible enough to give a little without snapping in half.
 
Lukas said:
Is it possible to treat O1 using a blow torch? And if, how would one go about knowing when critical temp. is reached?
Click to expand...

Yes, you can get acceptable results. Try to get even heat being careful not to overcook the edge in particular. I heard one guy say he used two propane torches cause he couldn't keep even heat over the blade with one. Of course a torch in each hand makes the next step tricky. Heat to non-magnetic (if you are holding the magnet in your teeth, make sure it has a long handle) and just a bit more. If you can hold it right about there evenly for a few minutes, it's best and then FAST - with no time to cool, staight into the oil. Thin oil is good - maybe 5/30 or tranny fuid - but olive oil smells better. :-) and either way, preheated oil is better but not essential. Coleman lantern fuel is not good for quenching. :eek: :) O1 is forgiving. You are going to get some scale. There are products to reduce scale but that's another expense. You could even try an edge quench if you want - just use a large shallow pan of oil so the edge quenches fast and the rest takes it's time a bit more. NOTE - there is going to be fire. Don't do this in the kitchen!

You can temper in a toaster oven or the kitchen oven if you clean the oil off real well. (stinky!) :barf: If you choose a middle range, even 50 degrees error one way or the other will still give you a serviceable blade.

Bob Loveless heat treated his first knife blade pretty much this way in a ships galley. It was good enough to get him started on an incredible career and unfortunately, good enough that it "walked out of the shop" years later.

You just wanted a yes-or-no answer didn't you??.... :o

Sorry
 
Rob! said:
Yes, you can get acceptable results. Try to get even heat being careful not to overcook the edge in particular. I heard one guy say he used two propane torches cause he couldn't keep even heat over the blade with one. Of course a torch in each hand makes the next step tricky. Heat to non-magnetic (if you are holding the magnet in your teeth, make sure it has a long handle) and just a bit more. If you can hold it right about there evenly for a few minutes, it's best and then FAST - with no time to cool, staight into the oil. Thin oil is good - maybe 5/30 or tranny fuid - but olive oil smells better. :-) and either way, preheated oil is better but not essential. Coleman lantern fuel is not good for quenching. :eek: :) O1 is forgiving. You are going to get some scale. There are products to reduce scale but that's another expense. You could even try an edge quench if you want - just use a large shallow pan of oil so the edge quenches fast and the rest takes it's time a bit more. NOTE - there is going to be fire. Don't do this in the kitchen!

You can temper in a toaster oven or the kitchen oven if you clean the oil off real well. (stinky!) :barf: If you choose a middle range, even 50 degrees error one way or the other will still give you a serviceable blade.

Bob Loveless heat treated his first knife blade pretty much this way in a ships galley. It was good enough to get him started on an incredible career and unfortunately, good enough that it "walked out of the shop" years later.

You just wanted a yes-or-no answer didn't you??.... :o

Sorry
Click to expand...
So I need to heat it and quench it, and then put it in the oven? What temperature do I need to set the oven to?
Do I need to put the blade in the oven even if I do an edge quench?
 
And by the way I REALLY appreciate the responses, a yes and no answer would've been horrible because I would probably have messed up my first knife :). Thank you both so much :thumbup:
 
The post above mine was great. Yes, you still need to temper if you edge quench because the edge will be very hard and brittle. It would chip easily if not tempered. I'd be inclined to aim temper at 450 degrees. My charts show that should yeild about rockwell 61 and if you are under 50 degrees it would be about 62 - over 50 degree about 59 - all giving a serviceable knife.

It was said but I'd like to clarify - when you are quenching in the oil, it's ok (good) to move knife back and forth in a slicing or stabbing motion in the oil - but moving the hot blade side to side will cause warping / bending.

Also, when you do the file test, be aware that some surface material may seem soft from minor decarb. Clean the surface up a bit with sandpaper before deciding your heat treat failed.

Rob!
 
Rob! said:
The post above mine was great. Yes, you still need to temper if you edge quench because the edge will be very hard and brittle. It would chip easily if not tempered. I'd be inclined to aim temper at 450 degrees. My charts show that should yeild about rockwell 61 and if you are under 50 degrees it would be about 62 - over 50 degree about 59 - all giving a serviceable knife.

It was said but I'd like to clarify - when you are quenching in the oil, it's ok (good) to move knife back and forth in a slicing or stabbing motion in the oil - but moving the hot blade side to side will cause warping / bending.

Also, when you do the file test, be aware that some surface material may seem soft from minor decarb. Clean the surface up a bit with sandpaper before deciding your heat treat failed.

Rob!
Click to expand...
Wow, thanks a lot for the great advice, both posts were extremely useful :) :thumbup:
I think I'm going to read a little more about heat treating and attempt this either today or within the next few days. So olive oil would be fine to use? Because I have tons of that around, that would be the easiest :)
 
Several makers here have posted about using olive oil with good results and ess stink. Where do you get lots of olive oil from. The stuff is more expensive than lobster around here. :(

Rob!
 
Rob! said:
Several makers here have posted about using olive oil with good results and ess stink. Where do you get lots of olive oil from. The stuff is more expensive than lobster around here. :(

Rob!
Click to expand...

Haha, luck would have it that the house my parents bought when they came to Canada a few years back had a little stockpile of it left in the garage :confused:
I guess the previous owners were preparing for a global olive oil shortage :)
Anyways, the stuff goes for something like 10$ a litre here, which means I have about 200$ worth of olive oil, which I don't exactly trust for consumption, but which would probably do a beautiful job quenching ;)
How big of a vat of oil should I use for quenching? 1-2 litres?
 
I hardened my first O1 blade in a mixture of olive oil and vegetable oil. It was a wharncliffe blade and twisted about 70 degrees in a spiral toward the tip. The second blade was a clip point and only twisted a little, about 1/4" at the tip. My as quenched hardness using this blend was 63-64 IIRC. The final tempered hardness was 57-58. I cant remember the temperature I used, but it was the one on the steel package that said it would give a hardness of 58. From what I heard from the guy I gave it to, it made it most of the way through a deer before needing a touch up. I'm not really sure what that means, as everyone has different criteria for sharp. I tend to lean toward harder blades now, near 63-64 for this steel, but thats for my personal stuff.
 
Lukas said:
How big of a vat of oil should I use for quenching? 1-2 litres?
Click to expand...

I use a roaster pan which probably holds about 5 litres. It's fine for 2 - 3 blades but wouldn't be enough if I were doing more.

Don't use a plastic container. (Ask me how I learned that one.) :o

Rob!
 
Rob! said:
Don't use a plastic container. (Ask me how I learned that one.) :o Rob!
Click to expand...

ROFL :D :D
I'll keep that in mind. So for one small knife I suppose 1-2 litres should be fine.
Knifemaking is AWESOME, I hope the day comes when I'll need a 10 litre vat :D
 
Ok so I just tempered and quenched it, the following things happened.

I built a little box out of bricks in order to have a bit of thermal insulation. I started heating the knife, with two blow torches fixed on vises with the flames meeting. I took the blade which I had screwed onto a piece of steel barstock in order to hold it and move it back and forth in the flame. I heated the blade until what I thought was cherry red, took a magnet on a stick and waited till it was nonmagnetic and glowing a dark red and then quenched it in the olive oil (which I had heated with a hot bolt) immediately. Because it was such a small blade, the oil only bubbled a little around the blade and then settled. I waited a while, then cleaned off the scale and did an edge test with a file... only to be disapointed that the file was still "gripping" on most of the edge, and was only sliding off on a small portion. Ok, so back to the torches and I heated the entire thing up again. Tested with a magnet again and found out I had broken the first one due to overheating it accidentally, so I needed another magnet. I found one, repeated the process, quenched and did an edge check only to find that a about 1/3 of the edge was hardened now and the rest was still soft. So I repeated it again, got the same frustrating results, and heated it again, this time leaving it for a while and making sure the entire edge was glowing red. I checked with the magent, waited a little more and then quenched. This time when I did the edge check almost the entire edge was hard except for about 3mm on the bottom and 2mm on the top. the blade is in the oven at 425f now (I decided to lower that temp a bit since the little bottom and top parts weren't hard enough). Any feedback is appreciated :)
 
If this is not just the only blade you think you wish to make heat treat it yourself. You should, in that case, learn the heat treat any way and now is the best time to start. Enjoy your trip over seas and while there plan your forge making. You can make a simple one using refactory cement. The O1 steel is a perfect steel to start with and a steel the best knife makers still use. If you are going to make a blade you might as well be the one to make the most important part of it, the heat treat.

rlinger
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