Need Stone Sharpening Tips (Basic)

JWheel

JWheel

Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
518
So after getting some good suggestions in this forum, I purchased a Norton Combination (100/280 grit) Oilstone, a strop and compound, and an Old Hickory paring knife to learn to sharpen with.

The Old Hickory was completely dull and needed some love to even develop and edge. I felt like I did a decent job with that on the 100 grit. Then gave it some time on the 280 grit.

After that, it wasn't all that sharp when it came to slicing paper or shaving fingernail. I looked at it with a 10x loop and it seemed (mostly) to come to a relatively even "V". But I dropped back to the 100, then worked up to the 280. No real improvement.

I thought maybe the strop might take it the rest of the way, but no dice. It's a lot better than what I started with, but it's just not sharp. Also, I never felt like I got a burr going.

Now, I realize that I'm new and can't expect to nail this out of gate. But how do I figure out the problem and get better at this?
 
You must raise a burr on the coarse side of the combination stone, remove most of it and repeat on the fine. You are likely not spending enough grind time to make a new cutting edge.

There are a few videos on the site linked through my signature below, the first one and the one showing the Norton Econo stone might be helpful. They're intended as instruction for the sharpening block I make, but the content is largely applicable to other freehand, especially the Econo stone vid.
 
I'm experienced and can hardly get an edge that cuts from a Norton SiC stone. It reminds me of really muddy waterstones and how the coarser grits tend to "scrub" away the edge. Personally, I think the coarse SiC and fine India make a better pair.
 
I think (?) that maybe the 280 grit is still to coarse. Normally, I only use that coarse a grit when a blade needs serious reprofiling. I go to a 600 grit and then a 1000 grit Smith's ceramic stone (about $4). Can get an excellent edge on most any steel. Of coarse, as you know, keeping the bevel even is important with an grit stone.

Rich
 
I'm also inclined to agree, 280 is still likely a bit too coarse to produce much of a fine-cutting edge. With soft steels, such as might be found on the Old Hickory knives (I think their 1095 blades are ~mid-50s HRC*), the coarse 'teeth' produced from such grit are essentially the only thing working to cut, and would likely fold or be scrubbed off the edge pretty fast in use, leaving an underlying thick apex that's too blunt to work very well. I've seldom, if ever, had much luck producing lasting edges at much below 320-grit, on relatively soft steels.

320-grit is about as low as I'd ordinarily go, for a relatively toothy finished edge that will last relatively long. I've used the 'Fine' side of Norton's 'Economy' stone for such edges, which is very close to ~320 or so, maybe becoming a bit finer as the stone breaks in. I've also limited my use of wet/dry sandpaper to 320 or higher, for the same reasons. Only time I go below 320, is for rebevelling or other heavy grinding jobs, then following with something higher to finish the edges.

(* = Old Hickory lists the hardness of their 1095 in a pretty wide range, anywhere between 53 and 58 HRC. They specify the same hardness range for their stainless 440C blades as well.)


David
 
Last edited:
Thanks, guys! I'm sure there's a lot of operator error in my process too.

Okay, so someone advise me on what to try please. Am I going to continue using the stone I have in the process or skip it entirely?

If I'm keeping it, I see a Smith's SK2 system with a 400 grit stone and a smaller 1000-1200 grit "finishing stone." It's cheap.

Or do I need something else? Jason B. (I blame your awesome threads for making me want to try stone sharpening in the first place, btw:)), you mention the fine India. But that only gets me up to 320, right? Don't I want to go up higher if I've already got a 220 stone?

And OWE, you say 320 is your minimum. I want to get at least to the factory edge that came on my PM2. About how high of a grit would that be?

I'm ultimately going to be sharpening Beckers and Spydies. So I want to be able to get edges that work with those.
 
JWheel said:
Thanks, guys! I'm sure there's a lot of operator error in my process too.

Okay, so someone advise me on what to try please. Am I going to continue using the stone I have in the process or skip it entirely?

If I'm keeping it, I see a Smith's SK2 system with a 400 grit stone and a smaller 1000-1200 grit "finishing stone." It's cheap.

Or do I need something else? Jason B. (I blame your awesome threads for making me want to try stone sharpening in the first place, btw:)), you mention the fine India. But that only gets me up to 320, right? Don't I want to go up higher if I've already got a 220 stone?

And OWE, you say 320 is your minimum. I want to get at least to the factory edge that came on my PM2. About how high of a grit would that be?
I'm ultimately going to be sharpening Beckers and Spydies. So I want to be able to get edges that work with those.
Click to expand...

Not sure what Spyderco's finish is on the PM2 (assuming S30V). Might be finished at/below 320 on belts and/or wheels & buffs to remove burrs, etc; that steel at higher hardness should support that coarser finish. I've LOVED DMT's Fine or EF for such blades, and their Coarse (325) could even be useful on it. Jason might know how Spyderco finishes theirs; I seem to recall he's mentioned their finishing methods before. On something like your Old Hickory knives, I'd not go below 320. If you're just looking for a stone for those knives, that Norton 'Economy' stone is the first I'd likely try (the 'Fine' side); it can be found at Home Depot for about $7 or so. Stropping on denim with some white or green compound would dress it up a bit, after the stone.

Norton's 'Fine' India is approximately ~400 grit, BTW (rated similar as compared to P400 sandpaper). They also have an EF at ~800 or so (again as compared to the FEPA-P grit standard for sandpaper).


David
 
Last edited:
Try marking the blade with a sharpie to see if you're getting good contact between the blade and stone. If you're making good contact, the sharpie mark will be gone. I like to make 10-20 strokes on one side then switch to the other side. I keep doing that til the knife is sharp or I feel it's time to move to a finer grit.
 
Also, I never felt like I got a burr going.
I think this is your problem, you're not apexing the edge ... its like the most basic problem , everybody encounters it

it happens because angle is too shallow, or angle keeps changing (wobble)

using sharpie/magic marker trick can help you see where you're removing marker, tells you if your angle is too shallow (removing marker back from edge) or to steep (removing marker only at apex)

raising a burr is one way to reach apex , another is watching for reflection with flashlight (when edge no longer reflecting, microbevel)

once you raise a burr, double your angle and sharpen a few light passes to cut off the burr (microbevel)

i also have norton economy sharpening stone, I can get to some shaving ability on both coarse and fine side with this technique
 
dug24 said:
Try marking the blade with a sharpie to see if you're getting good contact between the blade and stone. If you're making good contact, the sharpie mark will be gone. I like to make 10-20 strokes on one side then switch to the other side. I keep doing that til the knife is sharp or I feel it's time to move to a finer grit.
Click to expand...

Sharpie on the edge is a great trick to make sure that your technique is correct and that you are hitting the edge...

Not sure about the grits you you are using?
They are great for re-profiling or taking out large chips, but for a blade with no other issues than maybe micro-chipping, I would start at a 400 or 600 grit stone.

600 will finish with an excellent edge and, you can strop from there, or, if you want to continue to really refine the edge, move up to 1000 grit and so on....
 
Jason B. said:
I'm experienced and can hardly get an edge that cuts from a Norton SiC stone. It reminds me of really muddy waterstones and how the coarser grits tend to "scrub" away the edge. Personally, I think the coarse SiC and fine India make a better pair.
Click to expand...
What kind of edge is that? You can shave some hairs off your arm/leg with it right?
 
A 280 grit crystalline stone is not too coarse and with more work an edge coming off it can easily shave every hair it touches. You must work it on one side until you produce a burr. From the sound of it you just need more work. The stone needs some breaking in and perhaps technique. Still, your close. DM
 
David Martin said:
A 280 grit crystalline stone is not too coarse and with more work an edge coming off it can easily shave every hair it touches. You must work it on one side until you produce a burr. From the sound of it you just need more work. The stone needs some breaking in and perhaps technique. Still, your close. DM
Click to expand...

Agreed, it may not be anything you'd want near your face, but it should shave most arm hair and produce a great EDU edge. Is also a good finish set-up for smooth steeling or stropping with the reclaimed mud from the stone. One can certainly go to higher levels of finish, but should also be able to produce acceptable results on that stone. One has to develop a good foundation anyway, the Crystalon is a good start.
 
Thanks, guys. I'll give it another shot. Part of the issue is that the Old Hickory came without an apex. I had to basically give it one (and there are a few places near the tip where I haven't succeeded). So instead of repairing a dull edge, I have the additional challenge of profiling.

I picked up that Norton Economy Stone on my home from work. It was $6 so I figured it was worth a try. I'll report my results once I give it a go.
 
Actually, I had a little time tonight to give it another go. Tried the new stone (but that one needs some breaking in). And I tried the sharpie trick. I seem to be pretty good with the right hand (according to sharpie), but need some steadying with my left.

I would say the results were negligible. Maybe a slight improvement. Better than butter knife. I'll keep laying for a few nights and see if I can get this right. I'll rewatch everyone's vids too.
 
Wheel, your welcome. What your noticing is normal. 'With one hand you get a better edge than with the other.' Just keep working at it. This just takes practice. Your stone will break in and your skill improve. In turn the edge as well. That stone should cut the Old Hickory steel easily. Perhaps try a wedge. Are you using oil on it? DM
 
David Martin said:
Wheel, your welcome. What your noticing is normal. 'With one hand you get a better edge than with the other.' Just keep working at it. This just takes practice. Your stone will break in and your skill improve. In turn the edge as well. That stone should cut the Old Hickory steel easily. Perhaps try a wedge. Are you using oil on it? DM
Click to expand...

Yes to the oil. Although the new stone might not have been fully saturated when I sharpened. I'll keep at it. If I'm still having issues next week, I'll post some more.

My goal is to learn the basics on the cheap with these oil stones. Then maybe get some nice water stones or diamond stones that will likely last me a long time.
 
I'd suggest read the stickies on this subforum. Especially the one started by magnanimous. Hopefully it'll help you understand what's going on as you sharpen.
Another good explanation is HeavyHanded manual for washboard. It also explains a lot that applies to free hand sharpening on stone.

Jason is a pro, so you might want to revisit his advice once you're built a solid foundation. I leant a lot more from him after I went back revisiting my basic ;).
On personal note: I am right handed, but my left hand yields a flatter bevel than my right, I guess it's because I pay more attention to it being a weak hand. So keep going, you'll get there. The masters are here helping and they are my masters too.
 
I had a drink. Watched a vid. Gave it another shot. Fail. I had another drink. Watched another vid. Gave it another shot. But this time ... only mostly fail. I got it to cut paper a little better, but I think I reprofiled the edge with different angles on each side. :(
 
JWheel said:
I had a drink. Watched a vid. Gave it another shot. Fail. I had another drink. Watched another vid. Gave it another shot. But this time ... only mostly fail. I got it to cut paper a little better, but I think I reprofiled the edge with different angles on each side. :(
Click to expand...

Forgot to add a last bit of advice - do not ever sharpen stuff after having a drink unless its some sort of emergency. Fine motor skills go down the toilet as well as any fine tactile awareness.

Different angles per side is really not a big deal, the key is to make sure the edge is not getting too large and that you create a burr and remove it. I'd recommend making the angle a bit lower (more acute) than the one it currently has. Beginning freehand will usually result in plenty of wobble on the stone, making the edge more broad than it should be - coming in extra low will give you a bit more wiggle room to shape the edge and still be reasonably acute when finishing it off. The grit of the stone will determine what the edge is good for, but cleanly slicing newsprint and shaving some arm hair is a starter at any grit.

This is the newer manual for my sharpening blocks - as mentioned is 80% applicable to all freehand. The original manual is still on the site linked below.

http://s748.photobucket.com/user/Millermeter_2010/library/WB_Manual?sort=9&page=1
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top