need to identify ats 34 vs 440c

timos-

timos-

Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
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Hello all,

I cant come up with anything when i search for telling difference between 440c and ats 34. I though I would ask here.
The situation is years ago i bought some ats 34 and some 440c. now i have got them mixed up and cant tell the difference. Any ideas?
 
Post a picture of them. My ATS-34 is darker and smoother than my 440C, which seems to be pickled (bumpy), but it all depends on the supplier.
 
Same here.....ats-34 came with a smooth black coating like oxide......my 440c was rough and a little pitted.
 
Can you tell them apart as two different groups of steel now? ( size, color, finish, etc.?) If so, and you have enough to make it worthwhile, send a 1" long piece of one group to be tested.

If it is just a bar or two of each, make some knives for the shop and house from them and don't worry which is which. HT is basically the same. Performance is close to the same,too.

I don't know if it would tell for sure, but you could clean two different bars up a bit and give them an equal etch in FC. Maybe one will etch different than the other. If so, test a known bar of each and compare.
 
I don't know the details of the test but you might be able to do a spark test. My materials science professor just mentioned the other day that you can grind metals and tell what metal is is based on the color and type of sparks produced. Just like how different metals burning gives different colors in fireworks. Since the two metals have different amounts of alloying elements you may just get lucky and see a difference when you grind them.
 
I've ground quite a bit of stainless steel and I've never noticed any green sparks.
 
Oh duh, Iron burns gold... so that's not going to work, my bad. If they weren't both stainless steels you could tell from the pattern the sparks make. Best bet is probably to get a new piece of one or the other and compare or have them professionally identified or finding a chemical that will react with one of the alloying elements. You could also try talking to a local university physics/chemical lab and see if they could help. They might want to keep a small sample though =p.
 
Basically, we're back to the old "mystery steel" discussion - except in this case, the OP knows both types are indeed actually good steel for knives. They are so similar, I doubt many of us would be able to tell the difference in the finished knives. It's still a problem though, because clients don't want to hear "Well, it's either this or that".

Short of having it analyzed, there's no way to really be certain.

This is easily avoided... Sharpies and letter stamps are cheap. Mark every bar, and every blank, every time.
 
james terrio said:
Basically, we're back to the old "mystery steel" discussion - except in this case, the OP knows both types are indeed actually good steel for knives. They are so similar, I doubt many of us would be able to tell the difference in the finished knives. It's still a problem though, because clients don't want to hear "Well, it's either this or that".

Short of having it analyzed, there's no way to really be certain.

This is easily avoided... Sharpies and letter stamps are cheap. Mark every bar, and every blank, every time.
Click to expand...

So True
Stan
 
I mark every bar when I get it....both sides and both ends.

In the new shop, I plan on a steel bin made of pieces of PVC pipe set upright. Each steel type will be labeled on the tubes. Even with that, I will still label the bars.

As I said in my other post, the best solution, unless there is a large quantity, is to make knives for gifts and self use from this mixed batch.

IrishSteel,
I believe you are confusing a "Flame Test" with a "Spark Test". The colors you are referring to are used in chemistry to identify elemental ions in solution by holding the test material in a flame ( preferably hydrogen). It doesn't work well for alloyed ( bonded) elements. The spark test will display the amount of carbon and how it is bound by alloy ingredients, but won't identify particular ingredients beyond carbon.
 
Thank you for all the feedback..
I will try to post a pic later.
IrishSteel that is some interesting info. I have noticed a slight difference in how the steels grind.
The various steels are all at different stages of a knife. Some have layout fluid on em , some are still black, etc. Good to know the HT is basically the same. At one time I had each project drawn out and all labeled in a notebook. Trouble is I have been lugging this stuff around for the past 15 years moving from place to place and have become horribly unorganized!

Thanks again for all the suggestions! I will def keep everything labeled from here on out:)
 
Marking the tang of a blade is where this is avoided. When I cut out a profile ,I mark the steel type. When it is ground, I re-mark it. Sometimes, I engrave the type on the tang . Nothing is worse than having a box of blades ready for HT, and not knowing what they are ( and they often are mixed).
 
Yeah I mixed the two tests. My professor definitely said the colors would be different but he forgot to mention that they wouldn't be different enough for someone without powerful tech to analyze. You will really only see a difference in patterns with the spark test. Still a good test for getting in the right ball park (carbon steel vs stainless) but for detailed analysis you'll have to go to professionals.
 
I may be mistaken but I think that I've had freshly ground ats get a little rust film on it if left wet and sitting for a few days 440c has not. Has anyone else noticed this?
 
In total agreement with ats showing rust film much quicker than 440, soldering guards
on fixed blades and neutralizing in TSP overnite much more of a rust on the ats and
"if any at all" on the 440.
Ken.
 
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