Never Good Enough?

[Moengo]

I recently put my sharpening systems away and went back to bench stones. Picked up a nice 4 stone set (Naniwa SS) and some good advice/tips from knifenut1013, and was on my way.

Here's my "problem": when I finish with the 8K stone, I check for sharpness in every way I've read and learned... my blade can pass these sharpness tests, put when I feel the edge, it just always seems it could be a little sharper...sometimes it doesn't even "feel" sharp? So back we go to the stones to make it "feel" sharp...a never ending cycle. My wife and kids shake their heads and can't understand...and ask why a person would continue to sharpen a sharp knife. I have no good answer. Maybe once I start stropping the knife will "feel" sharp...sharp enough to STOP.

 

[HoosierQ]

In my experience, different edge styles, and I am told, different steel "feel" different with regard to sharp. Some of that sharp feeling may be a rough, vertical little burr edge that will grab a little skin. That will be a function of edge style as well as steel.

I too and moving back to free-handing on stones and I too am going through some of this. One thing that I have found valuable...either as a learning tool or maybe forever...is to look at your edge under magnification. I have one of those jewelers magnifiers that sits on you head. Then I look also through a hand magnifying glass and you can pretty readily see just what that edge really looks like if the light is right. You'll see a burr, you'll see flat spots, etc. I am thinking of getting one of those geologist's loupes. Those magnify quite a bit and they fold up and would go in my kit.

Whether you want to go with this or not, I think the feel test can be missleading.

 

[cbwx34]

Passing a sharpness test by "feel" usually entails having a coarser edge that has some "teeth" or bite to it. The finer the edge, the harder it is to detect. There's also a greater chance of rounding the edge off a bit when you move to higher stones or a strop. It doesn't mean your knife isn't sharp, it just may not feel sharp in a way your accustomed to. Finding the perfect balance is one good reason to sharpen your own knives... you can alter the variables. Maybe just try and evaluate it on how it performs in actual use.

cbw

 

[Moengo]

You're right, I need to start looking at the edge through magnification...I've seen here on BF, the numerous pic's of edges under high magnification... and that should reveal any flaws.

 

[unit]

Passing a sharpness test by "feel" usually entails having a coarser edge that has some "teeth" or bite to it. The finer the edge, the harder it is to detect.

+1

A well polished edge will tend to push cut easily through your fingerprint and offer little resistance as it does so...if you were terribly inexperienced, you would probably end up bleeding. Two types of edges fail this "feel" test...dull edges that do not bite into our flesh, and very sharp polished edges that simply push cut (shave) through the fingerprint.

Next time look at your edge for schmutz that looks like a tiny burr. That burr is your shaved flesh.

Moengo, I know what you mean though, once you develop the passion, it seems you never want to push away from the sharpening table.

 

[Moengo]

Passing a sharpness test by "feel" usually entails having a coarser edge that has some "teeth" or bite to it. The finer the edge, the harder it is to detect. There's also a greater chance of rounding the edge off a bit when you move to higher stones or a strop.
cbw

It is true, the coarser edge "feels" sharper and I could very well be rounding the edge?

unit, knowing when to push away from the sharpening table is indeed part of the problem... I have the same problem with the dinner table as well.

 

[Jason B.]

Those stones as far as I can tell leave a very "smooth sharp" edge, mainly the type of abrasive determines this. Stropping with diamond compound will bring back the bite to the edge and take you to the next level in sharp.


I might be selling my 12k, going to the docs now but I'll send you a pm later.

 

[Rich S]

Sharpening is an addiction. When is it sharp enough? I've found that once I get to what I feel is a sharp (usually shaving sharp); leave it alone. Also touching up the edge when used is better than trying to resharpen a really dull knife. Removes less metal. I've gone to diamond hones and emory paper on wood for my sharpening. Works faster and IMHO gives a fine, fine edge. I tend to use my knives in a draw cut, not a push cut since my blades have no guard - don't want or need to push cut. For me, I've a couple of knives that I routinely resharpen on a really fine stone - it's a type of zen experience and feeds my addiction

Rich S

 

[Ben Dover]

A truly sharp, well polished and refined edge doesn't "feel" sharp.

If it "feels" sharp, you need to refine and polish it more.

 

[Moengo]

. I've gone to diamond hones and emory paper on wood for my sharpening. Works faster and IMHO gives a fine, fine edge. I tend to use my knives in a draw cut, not a push cut since my blades have no guard - don't want or need to push cut. For me, I've a couple of knives that I routinely resharpen on a really fine stone - it's a type of zen experience and feeds my addiction

Rich S

What grit emory cloth are you using? I can relate to the "zen" experience and the addiction. I wonder if there is a 12 step program out there for this?

Jason, I want that 12k stone!

 

[Gadgetaholic]

I have my Ontario RAT-1 sitting by my computer, I keep on playing with it - flipping it open, closing it, running it along a strop with almost no pressure at all.

I have sharpened up other knives and thought they really didn't feel all that sharp compared to my RAT-1. Then I tested them and found that they could easily shave arm hair and push cut newspaper. I think that I have stropped my RAT-1 so much that it is just incredibly sharp and without a few hours of stropping none of my other knives could hope to match it. I have sliced a tomato with my RAT-1 without putting any downward pressure on the knife - I rested the knife on the skin of the tomato and drew it back, its own weight was enough to get it sliding through that tomato. The RAT-1 can also whittle hair, producing some nice curls.

If you want a truly sharp knife then strop it until the edge is like a mirror! I strop while watching TV - now my RAT-1 is just being stropped on bare leather.

 

[Rich S]

Moengo -

I work from 400 to 1500 grit emory for sharpening, then lightly strop on an old leather belt with no compound added. I really like the diamond hones; the coarse will reprofile a blade in a matter of minutes and the fine will put a good working edge that will satisfy most "non-addicts"; of course I then go to the emory for an addict level edge

Try Ragweed Forge's diamond plates, only $10 each! I glue them to a wood block to clamp on my workbench.

http://www.ragweedforge.com/SharpeningCatalog.html

Rich S

 

[stoffi]

If you actually use your knives, you'll quickly realize that this push-cutting business is just snobbism. Any push-cut edge won't last very long once you start using it for carving up some firesticks or whatnot. If you're going to perform surgery then I can understand it and also if one merely wants to know that one's knife is at it's best — but it won't stay that way if you really use it. So, just getting it sharp enough to cut free-hanging newspaper will be more realistic in the long term.

 

[Roger999]

If you actually use your knives, you'll quickly realize that this push-cutting business is just snobbism. Any push-cut edge won't last very long once you start using it for carving up some firesticks or whatnot. If you're going to perform surgery then I can understand it and also if one merely wants to know that one's knife is at it's best — but it won't stay that way if you really use it. So, just getting it sharp enough to cut free-hanging newspaper will be more realistic in the long term.

Why would an edge sharpened at 20 degrees with a 12k grit stone lose it's edge faster than an edge sharpened at 20 degrees with a 1200grit stone?

 

[stitchawl]

If you actually use your knives, you'll quickly realize that this push-cutting business is just snobbism. Any push-cut edge won't last very long once you start using it for carving up some firesticks or whatnot. If you're going to perform surgery then I can understand it and also if one merely wants to know that one's knife is at it's best — but it won't stay that way if you really use it. So, just getting it sharp enough to cut free-hanging newspaper will be more realistic in the long term.

Stoffi, some of us have hobbies that use push-cutting as the exclusive method of cutting. I do a bit of 'chip carving' and all the cuts are done push-cut style. If you aren't familiar with this style of wood carving, here are some examples (none of which are mine, by the way. ) It's a nice easy, 'sit back and carve' way to pass some time, and a fine hobby that incorporates our love of good edges with a bit of art.

You can't make the cuts any other way than by push cutting or you'll bust through the corners. It's an enjoyable hobby that doesn't take as much skill as one would think, and is actually a pretty cheap hobby to follow, all things considered. Less than $100 for all your tools, (obviously you 'can' spend a lot more if you want...) and a $5 block of bass wood. Two knives are enough, a pair of dividers, compass, a pencil, and an understanding wife with a vacuum cleaner. (There are LOTS of little bitty chips!)

That said, I don't sharpen my chip carving knives the same way that I sharpen my EDC Benchmade 710! Every blade has its own best purpose and its own best way of being sharpened. A good sharpener (or a really really lucky one) is able to sharpen a blade to get the best out of the edge. I, fortunately, have been pretty lucky so far!!

Stitchawl

 

[unit]

If you actually use your knives, you'll quickly realize that this push-cutting business is just snobbism. Any push-cut edge won't last very long once you start using it for carving up some firesticks or whatnot. If you're going to perform surgery then I can understand it and also if one merely wants to know that one's knife is at it's best — but it won't stay that way if you really use it. So, just getting it sharp enough to cut free-hanging newspaper will be more realistic in the long term.

Hey, no offense but I do actually use my knives and I do not consider myself a snob. Having a highly polished edge affords me a few extra cuts before the knife becomes too dull for my tastes. I won't chastise anyone for carrying a knife duller than mine, and I do not think I am a better person for wanting the sharpest knife I can produce.

I agree that the ultra-sharp/hair-splitting edge will not stay that way long, but it will outlast a coarse edge under the use in my duty cycle.

 

[stitchawl]

Why would an edge sharpened at 20 degrees with a 12k grit stone lose it's edge faster than an edge sharpened at 20 degrees with a 1200grit stone?

Fear of 'flaying?' (ducking and running)


Stitchawl

 

[stoffi]

Why would an edge sharpened at 20 degrees with a 12k grit stone lose it's edge faster than an edge sharpened at 20 degrees with a 1200grit stone?

What I mean is that if you get a knife scary sharp (hair splitting) and really use it (elbow grease), then it won't split hairs very long. It'll still be very sharp, just not as sharp as you had it. Why do you think barbers needed to strop all the time between the passes? If you're cutting flesh, then it won't be as noticeable as when cutting oak wood, for instance.

Stoffi, some of us have hobbies that use push-cutting as the exclusive method of cutting. I do a bit of 'chip carving' and all the cuts are done push-cut style. If you aren't familiar with this style of wood carving, here are some examples (none of which are mine, by the way. ) It's a nice easy, 'sit back and carve' way to pass some time, and a fine hobby that incorporates our love of good edges with a bit of art.

You can't make the cuts any other way than by push cutting or you'll bust through the corners. It's an enjoyable hobby that doesn't take as much skill as one would think, and is actually a pretty cheap hobby to follow, all things considered. Less than $100 for all your tools, (obviously you 'can' spend a lot more if you want...) and a $5 block of bass wood. Two knives are enough, a pair of dividers, compass, a pencil, and an understanding wife with a vacuum cleaner. (There are LOTS of little bitty chips!)

That said, I don't sharpen my chip carving knives the same way that I sharpen my EDC Benchmade 710! Every blade has its own best purpose and its own best way of being sharpened. A good sharpener (or a really really lucky one) is able to sharpen a blade to get the best out of the edge. I, fortunately, have been pretty lucky so far!!

Stitchawl

Thanks for the edumacation, but I didn't get your point. All I can say is that what I meant by mentioning push-cutting was that many people use the push-cutting of newspaper as a reference for a superior edge sharpness that often isn't very long-lived, considering it's usage (camp knife, tactical blade etc). I wasn't bashing wood planes or anything like that.

Hey, no offense but I do actually use my knives and I do not consider myself a snob. Having a highly polished edge affords me a few extra cuts before the knife becomes too dull for my tastes. I won't chastise anyone for carrying a knife duller than mine, and I do not think I am a better person for wanting the sharpest knife I can produce.

I agree that the ultra-sharp/hair-splitting edge will not stay that way long, but it will outlast a coarse edge under the use in my duty cycle.

I didn't call You specifically a snob. I was merely stating that the chase for the "perfect edge" with 50K stones or what have you isn't necessary for an edge to excel at it's intended job. However, I agree with your second paragraph statement about how a ultra-sharp (fine-polished?) edge will outlast a coarse one. But that's easily achievable with a few strokes on a leather strop — if you've sharpened it with appropriate grits before that: you could use a few stones between 400-4000 and then go onto leather to get an edge that will shave and split hairs. Anything sharper than that has very limited and specific usages and edges like that do not last very long for other common tasks. A scalpel has no business being a camping knife. That being said, I'm not saying you shouldn't have a sharp blade, just that there is a practical limit of sharpness with each type of edge and taking it further is an unnecessary and short-lived luxury.

 

[hardheart]

I can't seem to follow what you are saying. Cutting free hanging newspaper can be done with an edge sharpened on double digit grit abrasive or a file, and is kinda far from a 4K edge followed by a strop which is able to shave and split hair. That level is also around the 0.3-0.4 micron edge radius of a metal scalpel. As well, the silicates in a leather strop will be as fine/finer than a 50K stone. I'm not sure where you are saying to stop. When is sharpness a short-lived luxury, and when is it sharp enough to properly cut fuzzsticks (which I do by push cutting, not slicing)?

 

[Moengo]

What I mean is that if you get a knife scary sharp (hair splitting) and really use it (elbow grease), then it won't split hairs very long. It'll still be very sharp, just not as sharp as you had it.

A scalpel has no business being a camping knife. That being said, I'm not saying you shouldn't have a sharp blade, just that there is a practical limit of sharpness with each type of edge and taking it further is an unnecessary and short-lived luxury.

I don't have a problem with understanding my "scary sharp" blade won't remain that way after use. For me it's just acknowledging it's sharp and has reached the "practical limit" of sharpness. Since I am stilling learning to perfect the techniques I'm using, I somtimes feel if I were just alot better at this I could get the edge sharper? For me, I still think there is a confidence factor in there somewhere screwing things up.