revnewk
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I hope that the Bantams don't go away. I like their lines and profiles better than the Rival. IMHO.
Still, glad that the Rival is USA-made.
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New 2017 Bucks--Pictures, Descriptions,...and Some Disappointment
- Thread starter revnewk
- Start date
I hope that the Bantams don't go away. I like their lines and profiles better than the Rival. IMHO.
Still, glad that the Rival is USA-made.
On the one hand I would point out that 440C is no longer sold as the premium super steel it was marketed as years ago. Right now it's known as a great allround steel. As far as I can tell the material is priced accordingly.
However, offering a different steel also means offering a different heat treat, and that means changing / overhauling your manufacturing process. That is expensive!
To me, Buck seems a brand that reallly does heat treatments well, but they are only able to do so because they committed to a tight selection of steels.
As for the new selection:
From a business point of view it's a tricky thing. One the one hand I would be all over a 110 inspired blade that was more suitable for everyday carry, on the other hand, some competitors are already well established in that market. Can Buck eist alongside Spyderco when it comes to EDC suitability? Can they compete with CRKT and Kershaw when it comes to price?
What continues to surprise me is the lack of a bushcraft knives. Buck has a history of creating knives for the outdoors, mostly hunting. A bushcraft knife wouldn't be too much of a stretch. And yet, what do we have up until now? The Buck Selkirk which is sadly made in china and as such lacks the BOS heat treat. Other than that we have the buck Mesa (?) which you can only get if you happen to live nearby a certain american chain of big retail stores as I understand it.
I hope 2017 will see Buck working on their availability in Europe. I think they could have a great market here, they offer something different than the current European brands do at quite competitive prices too, but the selection is rather lacking. You can;t order from the buck custom store, and regular models such as the 105 are really hard to find here.
MT_Pokt
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I know nothing about heat treating, but Buck uses 420HC, S30V, BG42, ATS34, CPM154, S90V, S35VN, D2, and numerous others. They seem skilled at adapting their process.
From what I've read Bos overseen the setup and everything heat treat at the facility overseas, and I assume Buck has reliable process and quality control in the overseas plant(s). Besides; Paul Bos has been retired for years as I understand it, and it's more or less his technique and not him personally overseeing the process.
While there are a lot of bushcraft capable blades from Buck, the Hood knives come to mind first, along with the Compadre, and a few others; I'll agree that they're lacking a true, flat ground, carbon steel, 1/4" thick knife that's bushcraft specific.
I'd like to see Buck concentrate on their pedigree knives: 100 series fixed blades, 110/112, and the 300 series with more "in-house" enthusiasm and not count on the easy buck from wholesalers to come up with new knives in those collections.
When I can buy a D2, drop point, 1095, G10, Damascus, flat grind, aluminum frame, etc, etc..110 for little more than a standard 110 or significantly less than a custom shop knife, the only winner is the consumer. Buck is perhaps leaving a ton of money on the table with these exclusives that could go to new product development, more options, etc. The "easy money" plan is a short term fix that can devalue the brand in the short term and sour brand loyalists in the long term.
That's my $0.02...
From what I've read Bos overseen the setup and everything heat treat at the facility overseas, and I assume Buck has reliable process and quality control in the overseas plant(s). Besides; Paul Bos has been retired for years as I understand it, and it's more or less his technique and not him personally overseeing the process.
While there are a lot of bushcraft capable blades from Buck, the Hood knives come to mind first, along with the Compadre, and a few others; I'll agree that they're lacking a true, flat ground, carbon steel, 1/4" thick knife that's bushcraft specific.
I'd like to see Buck concentrate on their pedigree knives: 100 series fixed blades, 110/112, and the 300 series with more "in-house" enthusiasm and not count on the easy buck from wholesalers to come up with new knives in those collections.
When I can buy a D2, drop point, 1095, G10, Damascus, flat grind, aluminum frame, etc, etc..110 for little more than a standard 110 or significantly less than a custom shop knife, the only winner is the consumer. Buck is perhaps leaving a ton of money on the table with these exclusives that could go to new product development, more options, etc. The "easy money" plan is a short term fix that can devalue the brand in the short term and sour brand loyalists in the long term.
That's my $0.02...
IMO, if Buck wants to compete in the survival and bushcraft markets, they minimally need to produce USA made full flat or, better, sabre ground blades. They also need to think more about handle shapes to deal with the variety of grips used for wood working (the place the Selkirk misses the mark).
I would LOVE a 100 series bushcrafter. 4.5" thin sabre ground blade. Black phenolic handle something in the shape of the Bucklite Max fixed blade with a bit more palm swell. One can dream.
I would LOVE a 100 series bushcrafter. 4.5" thin sabre ground blade. Black phenolic handle something in the shape of the Bucklite Max fixed blade with a bit more palm swell. One can dream.
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2017
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- 21
I couldn't agree more. I think Buck could expand into the Bushcraft market. I would personally love to see them win over Rowen (Esee) fans with things like:
1) An updated Compadre (Stick with the 5160, Move to Flat Grind, 5.5 or 6 inches, not red, a little heavier/bulkier/thicker for more bite when chopping). I'd buy a pile of these.
2) A 420hc version of the Punk and Hoodlum - (I know the Reaper is close to this. Maybe a reaper with a better handle and sheath)
3) USA Made Selkirk - I've almost bought it two times, but the blade is too small, and it's made overseas with a likely inferior heat treat. Nice grind, though.
4) Mesa - I love this knife. Sell it at more stores, Buck! Put your best foot forward, not just at Walmart. Bought one a few weeks ago and went straight back out and bought another. I really love this knife!
5) Non-Serrated Sentry - I've almost clicked "buy" 100 times, but the serrations have kept me from doing it.
I still love Buck, though! Best knife maker period.
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It's my understanding that you can order them "site to store" (free shipping) on walmart.com
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yep, you can now i just checked. you couldn't before.
revnewk
Gold Member
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- Jan 24, 2006
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- 381
Excellent suggestions, mwberggren!
I hope Buck is reading through this thread as they begin to prepare the 2018 new releases.
Best knife maker period!
Got a Buck Glacier about two weeks ago and love it. Was a bit concerned about being China made, but this is a wonderful knife. It arrived perfectly centered; locks up perfectly, was reasonably sharp (all my new users get honing). The scales are just rough enough for a good grip and I just love the barlow (large top bolster) style with a tip down pocket clip. My self fixed Vantage is my round the home EDC and the Glacier will be in my going out around town EDC rotation.
Rich
Rich
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- Jan 3, 2017
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I would also like to see an update to the Nighthawk line. One of the toughest knives ever made.
1) Bring back a Tanto version.
2) Bring back the Bravo version.
3) Cut the "oxygen tank" holes.
4) Update the sheath to be rattle-proof.
1) Bring back a Tanto version.
2) Bring back the Bravo version.
3) Cut the "oxygen tank" holes.
4) Update the sheath to be rattle-proof.
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2014
- Messages
- 522
It is easy to picture knife sales being down when ammo and gun sales were breaking records.
I think Buck has three markets and they need to manage the perceptions of all three.
Market I is collectors (like most of you here) and and you buy more than one Buck knife per year. This market spends big on Buck knives (per person), but there just are not enough of you. Buck wants to keep you faithful with great steel and all the rest of the bells and whistles. I am moving towards this market personally.
Market II is guys who want a good hunting knife. Add "Made in America" and they love that aspect, if the price is not stupidly high. I bought a Buck 450 in a blister pack when I was young, needed a good knife, and had heard good things about "Buck." I think it cost about $25. These guys may buy five knives in a lifetime, and Buck would like all five knives to be Bucks. I think these guys outnumber the collectors by a large margin. I think the 110 and the Vantage and the Bantam series play to this market and if I had to guess I would guess there is more money for Buck, because there are more customers here. I've graduated from dirt poor to doing OK and I carry a Buck Vantage in my right pocket and a Buck 55 in my left. But a lot of guys just like me probably opt for a Chinese Buck or a competitor's Chinese knife when they buy an EDC knife. You do not need high quality in a small pocket knife, your life does not depend on it. So keeping this market buying Buck knives must be hard. I know the faithful here consider that sacrilege, but there you go. Remember, I was one of these guys when I was young and the kids were eating all of my extra cash. Buck got me with a $25 knife in a blister pack, plus their great reputation. At that time I would not have paid $50 extra for a better steel.
Market III is going to buy cheap knives regardless. Then they will lose or break them and buy again. If they buy cheap Buck Chinese knives they might be pleasantly surprised to learn that they are 4x as good as the knives that you find in truck stops for 1/3 the price. Or they may not notice. I do not know if this market cares about the Buck name or if they just buy knives. I don't know if a good experience with Buck will drag them up the food chain when they buy a hunting knife some day. I think Buck has a presence here because they can, and it brings in money (who knows how much they make on a $10 knife, but every $ helps.) But when they sell into this market they infuriate the faithful.
So Buck wants to keep the faithful happy. It is more fun to build a great knife and sell it for $100 than it is to slap plastic and steel together and sell it for $10. And the Buck family is in this for money, but fun is obviously part of their reward as well. They'd love you faithful to talk about Buck knives and keep the second tier market convinced that Buck knives are great. When the second tier market buys their first Buck it better work, because you don't want to disappoint these guys, you want them to come back. The third tier market? If Buck gets their share of the madness without driving the higher end customers away they are happy.
I think Buck has three markets and they need to manage the perceptions of all three.
Market I is collectors (like most of you here) and and you buy more than one Buck knife per year. This market spends big on Buck knives (per person), but there just are not enough of you. Buck wants to keep you faithful with great steel and all the rest of the bells and whistles. I am moving towards this market personally.
Market II is guys who want a good hunting knife. Add "Made in America" and they love that aspect, if the price is not stupidly high. I bought a Buck 450 in a blister pack when I was young, needed a good knife, and had heard good things about "Buck." I think it cost about $25. These guys may buy five knives in a lifetime, and Buck would like all five knives to be Bucks. I think these guys outnumber the collectors by a large margin. I think the 110 and the Vantage and the Bantam series play to this market and if I had to guess I would guess there is more money for Buck, because there are more customers here. I've graduated from dirt poor to doing OK and I carry a Buck Vantage in my right pocket and a Buck 55 in my left. But a lot of guys just like me probably opt for a Chinese Buck or a competitor's Chinese knife when they buy an EDC knife. You do not need high quality in a small pocket knife, your life does not depend on it. So keeping this market buying Buck knives must be hard. I know the faithful here consider that sacrilege, but there you go. Remember, I was one of these guys when I was young and the kids were eating all of my extra cash. Buck got me with a $25 knife in a blister pack, plus their great reputation. At that time I would not have paid $50 extra for a better steel.
Market III is going to buy cheap knives regardless. Then they will lose or break them and buy again. If they buy cheap Buck Chinese knives they might be pleasantly surprised to learn that they are 4x as good as the knives that you find in truck stops for 1/3 the price. Or they may not notice. I do not know if this market cares about the Buck name or if they just buy knives. I don't know if a good experience with Buck will drag them up the food chain when they buy a hunting knife some day. I think Buck has a presence here because they can, and it brings in money (who knows how much they make on a $10 knife, but every $ helps.) But when they sell into this market they infuriate the faithful.
So Buck wants to keep the faithful happy. It is more fun to build a great knife and sell it for $100 than it is to slap plastic and steel together and sell it for $10. And the Buck family is in this for money, but fun is obviously part of their reward as well. They'd love you faithful to talk about Buck knives and keep the second tier market convinced that Buck knives are great. When the second tier market buys their first Buck it better work, because you don't want to disappoint these guys, you want them to come back. The third tier market? If Buck gets their share of the madness without driving the higher end customers away they are happy.
David Martin
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The Mesa I've not seen as it's an exclusive. It must look something like the Endeavor which is in Buck's catalog. Their axe, ok, I will concede it is
for light duty. Mostly animal processing. Not a good general duty hatchet. DM
for light duty. Mostly animal processing. Not a good general duty hatchet. DM
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"How much more expensive would it be to make the 110, etc out of 440C instead of 420?"
I'm kind of late commenting on this one but I wanted to post my view on it.
440C is now a sort of in between steel. Not bad certainly, but not up to the newer powder steel vanadium carbide steels.
On the other hand it is too high carbon to fine blank the steel so it poses more troubles than 420HC.
It does higher levels of abrasive wear resistance than 420HC but that doesn't make steels better. 420HC is pretty well respected for it's balance of wear resistance, ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance. It is also easier to cut, grind, edge and polish. The heat treat temps aren't that far off so there is not much difference there cost wise.
So, it isn't going to keep up with the true "super" premium steels like S30V, S35Vn, M390/20CV etc. but it costs about as much to fabricate into a knife. We all remember it was more tedious to sharpen than 420hc which is IMO a better balanced steel ( I like the ease of sharpening and slightly tougher edge 420hc takes but that is just me) for a regular non premium steel.
And when I want the premium steel and am willing to pay for it I want something ( for me and my uses) with the advantages of the powder steel process and those vanadium carbides.
Yyes, 440C still makes fine knives that will work for pretty much all of my uses. What it doesn't do is come out on the winning side of the equation I use when I decide to part with my fairly scarce dollars to buy a new knife. To be honest I still love my BG42 knives even though the same equation slots BG42 out when compared to S30V or CPM 154 ( better yet CPM M4 or Cruwear) for me. Nothing wrong with traditions.
Others will still prefer 440C and I respect that. It still is a great steel.
Joe
I'm kind of late commenting on this one but I wanted to post my view on it.
440C is now a sort of in between steel. Not bad certainly, but not up to the newer powder steel vanadium carbide steels.
On the other hand it is too high carbon to fine blank the steel so it poses more troubles than 420HC.
It does higher levels of abrasive wear resistance than 420HC but that doesn't make steels better. 420HC is pretty well respected for it's balance of wear resistance, ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance. It is also easier to cut, grind, edge and polish. The heat treat temps aren't that far off so there is not much difference there cost wise.
So, it isn't going to keep up with the true "super" premium steels like S30V, S35Vn, M390/20CV etc. but it costs about as much to fabricate into a knife. We all remember it was more tedious to sharpen than 420hc which is IMO a better balanced steel ( I like the ease of sharpening and slightly tougher edge 420hc takes but that is just me) for a regular non premium steel.
And when I want the premium steel and am willing to pay for it I want something ( for me and my uses) with the advantages of the powder steel process and those vanadium carbides.
Yyes, 440C still makes fine knives that will work for pretty much all of my uses. What it doesn't do is come out on the winning side of the equation I use when I decide to part with my fairly scarce dollars to buy a new knife. To be honest I still love my BG42 knives even though the same equation slots BG42 out when compared to S30V or CPM 154 ( better yet CPM M4 or Cruwear) for me. Nothing wrong with traditions.
Others will still prefer 440C and I respect that. It still is a great steel.
Joe
David Martin
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Yes, 440C is still a very good steel. It's closer to S30V than many realize in edge holding. The powder version of that is 440XH. This steel can stand shoulder to shoulder with CPM154. I don't know if I could tell the difference between the two. 440C takes a real good toothy edge and has good economy. DM
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