new at HT...Home Cryo?

James you should be able to get aluminum plates for plate quenching from Wausau steel, I've been doing the cold treatment for about 10 years using dry ice and denatured alcohol in a good size thermos. I usually get 3lbs for like $5 chip it up and slowly pour alcohol over it till the boiling stops then overnite the blades in it. My supplier gets their dry ice from Marathon carbonic and since thats where you're at, should be no problem.
Ken.
 
How does a spring temper differ from a hard edge temper in terms of carbide size, if at all? Fine carbides are good, that's one reason for going with CPM-type steels...

Now you've got me pointed back here, James, I see you never got an answer. Carbide size wouldn't change really... just pulling carbon out of the martensite crystals and they are relaxing (less stress)... getting shorter. The carbon balls up as the tempering temperature increases.

Mike
 
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Please do not try to differentially temper complex alloys like the CPM series !They work fine as is and temper back would mean temperatures of 1000 F at least !!
 
Now you've got me pointed back here, James, I see you never got an answer. Carbide size wouldn't change really... just pulling carbon out of the martensite crystals and they are relaxing (less stress)... getting shorter. The carbon balls up as the tempering temperature increases.

Mike


I'm not sure that is completely accurate. Tempering precipitates carbides. Depending upon the steel, the additional carbide formation can even be enough to measurably increase the measured hardness, such as the high speed steels with secondary hardening humps. (mete, correct me if I'm wrong).

I am not a metallurgist, and I have not directly seen these effects. But it is my understanding that a spring tempered piece of steel will have more, and larger carbides than a piece of full hard steel. For example, D2 and 154CM, which are two steels he is working with, will have lower corrosion resistance at higher tempers. This is due to the reduced free chromium which was consumed into those carbides.

Now, I do agree that tempering does nothing to break up or change the uniformity of carbides. If one wants a finer carbide distribution, tempering isn't going to effect that. But if one wants smaller, and fewer carbides, tempering does affect that.

Some steels, such as non CPM D2, have carbides that are large enough to interfere with edge geometry. It has been been hypothesized that the increased volume and carbide size of hot tempered D2 contributes to fine edge stability issues at higher tempers.

mete?
 
Here is how I do my dry ice cyro. I get everything ready and have the blades in a foil packet (I do several at once to keep per blade cost down). Go down to the local Safeway store and buy a block of dry ice. They have it in 8# chucks about 1 1/2" thick and about 8x8". It usually doesn't weigh doesn't 8# as it shrinks in storage. They sell it by the lb. I bring it home and stick it in the freezer. Then I stick my blades in the oven and go to 1500 for 10 minutes then to 1850f. While they are soaking, I break up the dry ice and put a couple gallons of acetone (I think I will go to kerosene for safety) and add the dry ice. My bucket has fiberglass insulation taped on the bottom and the sides BTW. Then I after a good 30 min soak I take a blade out and clamp it in my plates. Wait a minute or so and unclamp, remove the foil, (wear gloves) make sure it is straight and tweak if necessary. Set off to the side. Then I reopen the oven and do another blade. After quenching 2nd blade and tweaking straight if need be, I check the first one, if it is cool enough (just warm, say under 100f), I then pick it up with tongs and set it in the dry ice mix. DON'T use you hands a splash means frostbite! I cover the mixture with a piece of insulation. Then quench blade #3 and continue untill all the blades are in the bucket of dry ice/acetone. Then I go do something else for 3 or 4 hours. Then I remove the blades with tongs and let them return to room temp before I place them in an oven at 425f for 2 hours. Cool and repeat. I pour the acetone back in its storage container when it is warmed back up. To draw back tangs, I clamp blade in aluminum and use a propane torch to take the tang juncture to 800f, checking with a tempstick. They are available in many temps at welding supplies, cheap and accurate for this work. I did make a 15" recurve chopper out of D2 and drew the back to 800 while rocking the edge on wet sponges. Nathan the Machinist is a D2 fan also and I believe it was him who said 800 will get you the best toughness. I just got a hardness tester so will have more knowledge as to RC shortly, but all have preformed great. I have chopped all kinds of stuff, cut paper, cardboard, myself, nails and a variety of other stuff. I am a big D2 fan.
 
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""Nathan the Machinist is a D2 fan also and I believe it was him who said 800 will get you the best toughness. "

You have to take that in context. I believe that the number everybody fixates on is the notched impact strength peak at around 500. But there is a lot more to "toughness" than just that number. Going by that number, you'd think S30V was really tough too, but it hasn't always worked out that way.

Going from memory here, I believe the torsional shock resistance peaks around 800. This is also where I used to heat bender dies and form tooling. I believe the abrasive wear resistance (not adhesive wear) peaked around there too. The problem is, none of that translated into a knife edge well. I am of the opinion that D2 at around 450 has the best edge stability, and that isn't any kind of "peak" on any chart at all. Mind you, I'm not making big choppers.

Based upon my experience:

A fairly hard and thin D2 knife at HRC 62, tempered at 450 ish, with cryo before any kind of temper at all, .020 behind the edge and sharpened to 15 per side will cut a small nail in one blow without breaking or chipping. I think that something like S30V at HRC62 would fail here. The D2 will have edge damage, but the kind you can sharpen away. The same pattern in D2 at HRC 58 without cryo and tempered to 800 will chip out or break. (ask me how I know :o) However, it tolerates more yanking in a vice to break the tip off, for what that is worth. The edge stability on the softer D2 is so poor it will not hold an edge well when sharpened more acute than about 20 per side. Or, perhaps I'm just doing it wrong.

I've done a number of tests like this over the last couple years. I'm not an expert, these are just my observations. I wish somebody like Bob Dozier would chime in here.
 
I have been using CPM154 as of late and of course D2, ATS-34 and others. I recently have found a local source of dry ice and would like to do some of my own testing.

My question is this, has any one devised a home cutting test on two blades, prepared , heat treated , profiled , sharpened as identical as possible and then put them to a cutting test to compare cryo to not cryo treated?

I have done some testing but would like to hear from some of you guys what tests you use?

Believe me, I am not wanting to start a debate of cryo versus non cryo. I am only interested in the methods to compare.

Thanks in advance!

Ken
 
My question is this, has any one devised a home cutting test on two blades, prepared , heat treated , profiled , sharpened as identical as possible and then put them to a cutting test to compare cryo to not cryo treated?

Ken


I have done exactly that. Because of the way I make my knives (I mill them), I'm able to get my test blades very similar.

D2, at higher hardness, lower tempers, retains a lot of austenite. Depending on your austenitizing times and temp, upwards of 15%

D2, without cryo (or with cryo and too much of a snap temper) suffers miserable edge roll. Someone unfamiliar with the hardening characteristics of D2 might think it has pearlite in it or something, it rolls so bad. I have not been able to do D2 at high harness without this problem, and the only way I know to address it is cryo. And the difference cryo makes is huge, in this steel in this condition.

My cutting test uses three knives and three test media. I use a standard blade I always include in the test every time I do it, the new test blade, and one of a few high end production knives, such as a Chris Reeves, with similar geometry. I sharpen all three knives to the same angle and level of sharpness.

The first test is to cut an identical amount of the same cardboard with three knives. Normally about 150 inches of cardboard per knife. I then clean the fuzz off the edges and view all three side by side under magnification and strong light. You would be surprised how much visible wear a blade can sustain and still shave hair. I am not attempting to measure the wear, I'm compairing them against each other.

The second test is similar to the first except I cut thick leather - which is very abrasive. These two tests tell me a lot about how the edge is going to perform in the real world.

The last test is whittling cuts in a very hard hardwood. I take one cut, per blade, five times, to try spread out some of random variation in my technique. This isn't extremely scientific, but I can get fairly reproducible results this way.


In conclusion:
Using this test, in nearly identical test samples that even measure the same Rockwell hardness, cryo in D2 heat treated the way I do, improves edge retention in the abrasive media a noticeable amount, and improves edge stability in the hardwood component enough that the part with cryo is dull, but the part without cryo has edge damage visible while viewing the blade with an outstretched hand. The difference is huge and I could not, in good conscious, sell a D2 blade at this hardness without cryo. Higher tempering temps decompose the RA, so it becomes moot, but higher tempers has another set of issues.

My test does not attempt to quantify dullness. It is a comparison test against known constants, the results being either better than, or not as good. They have been for my own use in refining my knives and were never intended to prove or disprove the effectiveness of cryo to my peers. But the refinement in my process from this testing does give me enough confidence in my HT and in D2 to make the claim that it will outperform all production knives in my test that I have tested to date, and that includes some big name production knives and some fancy steels. D2 is good stuff, and for me - cryo is an importaint part of making it work.
 
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Nathan,

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain your testing and results!

I plan on forging forward with my testing. I like you, am interested in how cryo affects the knives that I make.

Thanks again!

Kenh
 
Carbides - there are carbides and there are carbides.
The primary carbides are the ones that you see easily in a microscope.These are the ones most responsible for wear resistance .They are not effected by tempering.
Secondary carbides are those that form from the martensite during the tempering. These start out small and as the tempering temperature increases the carbides tend to grow as more carbon is pulled from the martensite.
Secondary hardening is the formation of different carbides at temperatures of about 1000 F.This is found mostly with alloys containing good amounts of W, Mo or V. This is shown by the 'bump' on the tempering curve.This indicates formation of these carbides initially having coherency with the matrix. Higher temperatures cause growth of the carbides but loss of coherency.
 
Interesting stuff, mete. If I'm understanding this right, overheating causes "brittleness"? I realize that may not really be the right word...The steels I'm working with right now do indeed contain Moly and Vanadium, so I'll keep an eye out for that.
 
James, "overheating causes brittleness" - explain exactly what you are asking .
 
Well I "assumed" a couple things when I posed that. (Yes, I know what happens when I assume. :o)

Higher temperatures cause growth of the carbides but loss of coherency.

Does this mean that the steel would be "coarser" and more likely to break apart, compared to if it was treated properly? You're talking about carbides themselves, not necessarily the grain structure of the steel, yes?

If I'm getting this right, fun stuff like vanadium can keep the grain structure small and improve hardening characteristics (good) but if improperly treated, can result in large secondary carbides. (which sounds bad.)

Please excuse my poorly-worded questions. I really am trying to understand. :)
 
You're mixing things together. I'm talking about the carbides formed from tempering and especially the 'secondary hardening' type.
When you quench the grains are formed and tempering has no effect on their size.
When you temper [all precipitation hardening alloys go through this ] initial carbides are very small and have coherency with the matrix [a good strengthening mechanism] .As you go up in tempering temperature the initial carbides attract more carbon and get larger and lose the coherency. The secondary hardening mechanism illustrates this well. The bump is the point where you get initial formation of the carbides and as the hardness falls off you have gotten to the point where the carbides have become large and lost coherency.
Don't confuse 'secondary carbides' [formed from tempering martensite] with the 'secondary hardening' [ the formation of new , different carbides at high temperature.].
Still confused ?
 
When you quench the grains are formed and tempering has no effect on their size.

Yup, I got that. If I understand correctly, grain size is dependent on proper heat-treating temperatures and times for the given steel, up to and including the quench. Is that correct?

When you temper [all precipitation hardening alloys go through this ] initial carbides are very small and have coherency with the matrix [a good strengthening mechanism] .As you go up in tempering temperature the initial carbides attract more carbon and get larger and lose the coherency. The secondary hardening mechanism illustrates this well. The bump is the point where you get initial formation of the carbides and as the hardness falls off you have gotten to the point where the carbides have become large and lost coherency.

Got that too. My original question should have been worded, if the carbides
become large and lose coherency, does that cause weakness or affect the performance of the blade in another way? It seems like a bad thing but I should ask before I postulate. :o

Still confused ?

Less than usual. :) Seriously, thanks for your patience in explaining that.
 
# 1 - yes.
# 2 - I was explaining the mechanism of carbide formation.The coherency factor is not that important with steels at those high temperatures.
 
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