New batch of old axes (ID help request: Säter, DY)

[Ragnar Ökman]

Hello,
Postman brought me these today:

1. Hults Bruk 0.7 - 1 1/2
2. Marked *SÄTER* on left and (MAD)E IN SWEDEN 1,1 on right, roundish (or just rounded and mushroomed in use) poll, tear drop eye with hour glass shaped front wall
3. Marked DY on top and 2 1/2 under the poll, blueish black paint, tear drop eye. Head is glued to a lacquered handle, upper eye sealed with orange epoxy.
4. Gränsfors 2 1/4

I have never seen 2 or 3 before. Any info on them before I start my grinders and possibly ruin someone´s national treasure?

Quick study on Säter tells this is pre-1967, maybe even pre-1920. I leave this be until I know better. The blade is very worn and the handle is rotten beyond anything but to get the shape out of it to make new one.
On DY I found an old thread titled "Help with a boy's axe head ID" but it didn´t get me any wiser. It´s in good shape, maybe from 70-80´s.
I took measurements for notes to myself. I can post all the numbers and units if you want, but I thought pictures would be easier on your eyes. Actually they are not pretty either.

 

[Ragnar Ökman]

DY handle was attached only with 4 mm (5/32") epoxy jacket going about half way trough the eye. When chiseled and drilled off, the head just wiggled out.

There is two cuts in the front sides in the eye. Maybe unintentional, maybe made for epoxy (or what ever that brittle stuff was) to anchor in to steel.

 

[Dusty One]

Looks like they all should clean up real nice....Post pictures as you go !

 

[Ragnar Ökman]

Yes, they are clean now. Except Säter.

Differences in tan lines. Swedes looking good, then a crazy curve on the DY. Why and how?
HB actually has a second, paler heat treatment line up to the maker´s mark. Couldn´t get a better shot of it.

Little Hults would have been perfectly fine, ready to go camping after a little sharpening.
But after DY I needed to know what lies under that epoxy eye protection.
There must be wedge of some sort, quality brand and all. I was wrong.
After digging in about 13 mm (1/2") to that dried chewing gum reinforced with concrete -stuff I finally hit wood. Handle had generated a slight wiggle at this point, and I managed to drive it out in one piece. It had a DY style jacket with a filled half kerf (quillotine blade shape when viewed from the side).

Tell me experts, when and why they started making these goo fillings? Was it easier, faster, or cheaper to make or maybe stronger than a wedge?.
And why not to make a full kerf if you are at it?
While you are thinking if only one additional metal wedge on a wedge is enough, I´m thinking why is my axe rigged together with only bubble gum.

This turned into a build-thread, but information on Säter and DY product and time lines are still welcome. I tried to contact a Swedish guy named Jonas Landolsi (http://www.knivestoolsandart.com/search/label/säter). (If the link tells you there´s no posts with label säter, you can find it in Brands & Models below.)
He claims to have access to some museum archives on Säter. No answers yet.

 

[Agent_H]

DY marked axes have shown up here on the forums now and again. Here is one that had the epoxy in the eye like yours.
The second photo you can see an arcing line as well.

Chinacare.3lb by Agent Hierarchy


Chinacare.3lb by Agent Hierarchy


Chinacare.3lb by Agent Hierarchy
[/QUOTE]

In another thread we were pondering Sandvik and the Wetterlings site mentions that Sandvik moved operations to China.

http://www.wetterlings.com/history/

“The competition from China was already noticed in the 70’s. Wetterling’s large customer Sandvik AB began buying their axes from China, which of course was a major setback for the axe forge in Storvik .”

In another internet axe hole someone mentioned DY potentially representing Dongyang as a maker or designation.

I wouldn’t let any of that dissuade you from setting it solid, sharp, and ready to work

 

[Ragnar Ökman]

I´m sure this forum has a lot of info on these. Maybe my search words haven´t been the right ones yet.

 

[garry3]

DY marked axes have shown up here on the forums now and again. Here is one that had the epoxy in the eye like yours.
The second photo you can see an arcing line as well.

Chinacare.3lb by Agent Hierarchy


Chinacare.3lb by Agent Hierarchy


Chinacare.3lb by Agent Hierarchy

In another thread we were pondering Sandvik and the Wetterlings site mentions that Sandvik moved operations to China.



In another internet axe hole someone mentioned DY potentially representing Dongyang as a maker or designation.

I wouldn’t let any of that dissuade you from setting it solid, sharp, and ready to work [/QUOTE]
Pretty sure I have or had one of those DY axes. I don't get the door stop vibe from it at all but I didn't hang it, it looked pretty well made.

 

[Fmont]

Interestingly enough, Chinese military arms company Norinco uses/used 52100 in many of their small arms forgings, and are known for being harder than most com-bloc and Western analogs. Just an anecdote.

But I have come across some hard steel Chinese axes and mauls. Naturally that doesn't make them good, more like a gamble you might get a decent user.

 

[Ragnar Ökman]

DY´s edge has slightly softer sound and feel to a file than Swedes´. Polls are near the same hardness.
Respecting it´s (most likely) Chinese origin, I´ve deciced to build it to something kung-fu and gang related. Novelty axes are fun when they are not total garbage.

I salvaged HB´s handle for rehang. Now it has enough kerfs and wedges, but I don´t know if it is any better than the original fit. Maybe worse.
I´ll upload pics when it´s finished.

 

[Square_peg]

Differences in tan lines. Swedes looking good, then a crazy curve on the DY. Why and how?

These transitions can show metal changes (high carbon bit), heat changes from the quenching/tempering process or both. I have some ideas about the curve that I will share later.

 

[Ragnar Ökman]

I have some ideas about the curve that I will share later.

Please do.
There is similar Säter as mine on eBay, marked 0.7 but the profile is same. Compared to it my bit is missing about 20 mm in length of toe, 10 mm of heel and being marked 1.1 it weights only 0.979 kg.
So it goes to the "maybe someday"-project pile. It could be cut down to 0.7 size (L 150 mm, W poll 55 mm, W edge 81 mm). Getting it re-steeled might be expensive these days.

DY at it´s starting weight, 1.203 kg.

 

[Ragnar Ökman]

Reshaping and fitting the gang violence-package

Adapts to all standard M8 threaded accessories. In this case to a tungsten carbide tipped glass breaker (horseshoe ice stud).

Roughly slimmed down to 0.948 kg and ready for edge grinding.

Studs are also available in M10. Here´s one modified to replace the pommel nut on F-S fighting knife.
You can (barely) see my handiwork on multi-wedging the HB. Horrible looking outcome, as I underestimated the wedge sizes needed in rear to fill the gaps. I had to force gorilla glue in for a fix. It survived a quick spitting test at the log pile, so it will do for now. Still needs a complete edge geometry overhaul, it is badly slanted to one side.

 

[jake pogg]

These transitions can show metal changes (high carbon bit), heat changes from the quenching/tempering process or both. I have some ideas about the curve that I will share later.

Square_peg,as you know i've an unwholesome obsession with this subject...Really looking forward to what you may come up with.

Ragnar,interesting stuff.May i ask what process you used to clean these heads?
The reason i ask is because i'd like to do a crude,as abrupt as possible quench on some broken axe fragment,and see if indeed it'd produce a color variation as your axes show,and as the rural legend says it does.But i've never cleaned an axe-head to bare metal like that(hoping it's something simple...).

Interestingly enough, Chinese military arms company Norinco uses/used 52100 in many of their small arms forgings, and are known for being harder than most com-bloc and Western analogs. Just an anecdote.

But I have come across some hard steel Chinese axes and mauls. Naturally that doesn't make them good, more like a gamble you might get a decent user.

Yes,Fmont,that could very well be true.
A while back Square_peg has posted some Chinese factory axe-head listings,with alloys used stated.
There was any number of interesting options,including S7;and i wouldn't suspect them of cheating on an alloy either.Steel is still basically dirt-cheap,and most companies wouldn't risk their reputation,it'd literally not be worth it.
(in my own experience steel from salvaged Chinese axes was invariably consistent and perfectly usable,whatever(probably plain C alloy)it was).

On the subject of Hardness,however(specific Or relative),lets remember that it ONLY relates to the current State that the given alloy is in after the most recent HT.
So that one alloy is not,Cannot,be said to be "harder" than another.

 

[Ragnar Ökman]

May i ask what process you used to clean these heads?

Drill cup wire brush to get rid of dirt, paint and loose rust. Then citric acid bath (granulated acid from agricultural store + hot tap water) for a couple of hours, wire brushing under water occasionally to help the acid to dig in good. Some say 5% solution is best for rust removal, I just pour enough what dissolves and the steel starts making bubbles. Rinse in hot water and dry. Then again drill brushing to remove the formed oxide layer. Repeat if necessary. These were done two times.

Some metals takes rust immediately as you pull them out of the bath. Cast iron for example. Tool steels not so often.

 

[jake pogg]

Thanks much,Ragnar,kind of you to describe the process.
I may not be able to duplicate this...(i live far off the road-system,and increasingly more corrosive et c. substances are subject to hazmat regulations,this time of year especially we're only supplied by air).
I should be able to come close with maybe some cup-brush+electrosis...It ought to show enough contrast...

 

[jake pogg]

Studs are also available in M10[/QUOTE



I laughed when read about those tungsten studs...Remembered right away Capt.Ahab,who surreptitiously picks up and pockets those,when wealthy friends invite him to the races...He eventually has his shipboard smith forge-weld them into the edge-bar of his evil spear that he kills the White Whale with...

 

[Kevin Houtzager]

X

 

[Ragnar Ökman]

I´ve found out that citric has the best power-to-cost ratio compared to acetic or phosphorous acid. And it´s only labeleb as irritating, not corrosive. Acetic acid and urea works well for forced patina though.
I cleaned the Säter head today. Now we can start pondering why there are tempering blotches on top and bottom of the poll. It´s not dirt, but the same tanning as on the small segment of worn out blade.

Today I have also been updating my knowledge about whaling and old harpoons while watching Moby Dick (1998). Thanks to Jake.

 

[Downwindtracker2]

My wife is into rockhounding and they clean the rocks with some acidly like stuff. She puts them to soak in a slow cooker, the $5 special at the thrift store. I'm more of a Evaporust type of person. If I bother.

 

[Ragnar Ökman]

I think you are safe as long as she is only cleaning the rocks, not dissolving them to find noble metals.

Good news: That Jonas I mentioned earlier sent me email about new Säter content (with museum archive link) on their site. They have also started a project to gather info on Swedish axes old and new. Better check it out now and then. I couldn´t find an exact match for mine from the archives but close. It would be intriguing getting it re-laminated with some high-end modern alloy.