New-bie question on sharpening...

P

Paul Janulis

Joined
Nov 18, 2003
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I am getting into trying to learn how to sharpen knives like a pro, but I am still a newbie, so I have some questions.

#1. What is the best tool for you? Do you like rods, or something like the sharpmaker, or do you like stones. My only experience is with stones. All I have is 2 stones that I bought years ago, before I even knew how to properly sharpen anything. One is "coarse" and the other is "fine," but I don't even know what grit because it was so long ago when I bought it. By using good technique, I have been able to get some of my knives pretty sharp. I was able to put a double edge on my Ka Bar Tanto with it. But I am looking to get some different equipment, and I am not sure which way to go.

#2. What is the difference between the different grits. Yes, I understand that the higher the number, the less coarse the grit. But I am having some confusion about this. I always thoought that the angle was what made the difference in sharpness of the blade more so then the grit more so then the grit. The coarser the stone, the more metal it took off. When making your "second edge" (I have absolutely no terminology so bear with me) or the pointy edge, I know you want to use a finer grit. But, my question is, how coarse should I start (what grit), and how fine should I end up?

#3. Proper angling. I know that different angles serve different purposes. All I have been doing is taking the corner of a piece of paper, folding it once, then twice. That's my 1st edge angle, used mostly on my coarse stone, then followed up on my fine stone. My 2nd edge angle is much larger, the corner of the paper only folded once. I use the fine grit to make my point edge. Yes, I know this is fairly primative, but it seems to have worked. I would like to get a little more precise on my angling though, as not all angles are appropriate for all types of edges. What angles do you guys go by, and for what types of edges?

#4 Proper technique. My technique has been lining up my able with my paper guide, then carefully "push cutting" the blade along the stone at that angle, away from my body, using my thumb or finger on the back of the blade to keep it consistant (I wear leather gloves). I make sure I get the entire 1 side of the blade until I can feel a burr, then I do the other side. When I do the other side, because I am right handed, I have been using the same angle, except I have been pulling towards my body (I don't know if this is a mistake or not). I don't push the blade down on the stone very hard, and I don't push the blade along the stone very fast.

Please critique me. Is there a better technique? What technique do you use on stones, and how would that differ with other tools? Also, Wet or dry stone? How hard do you press the blade, if at all? How fast do you slide the blade accross the stone?

I have been getting decent results with this technique, but I know I can do better.

Input on all this would be greatly appreciated!

PAUL
 
Just a note on the angle part. Go here: http://knives.mylamb.com/calc.htm.

The rest there are a million answers and years of experience in this topic. No 2 people are alike.

Me, personally? I can use a belt grinder, paper wheels, Gatco sharpener, and Japanese water stones. What do I use for the best edges? Japanese water stones and a leather strop.

An excellent way to start with minimal outlay is the 'scary sharp' system. SC sandpaper over glass. Similar results to waterstones. For about $20 you can start building great edges. Get 320, 600, 1500 grit sand paper and get to work.

If you are serious, plan on spending at least 100 hours practicing the 'scary sharp' before moving on.

Steve

Oh yeah, buy this and use it!

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog_name=CTLG&product_id=63-1133
 
read the faqs that are available here. I started with a lansky and quickly got extremely sharp edges when used with a strop and compound. I bought the extra fine and extra corse stones, they do make a difference, especially the x-corse. I heard the edge pro was better than the lansky system, it probably is but the lansky works very well for me and don't really care about buying another "jig" because I have moved to a 1 x 30 belt grinder. It is easy to develop technique, alot easier than stones. start with 320 grit, 500, 600, 800, GOOD leather strop with green dust on it. Wear dust mask and goggles. You will be able to put a great edge on your quality knives in 5 minutes. Changing belts takes just as much time as sharpening. I use a craftsman model with a sanding disk as well, I take the guard that covers the belt wheels off so that it is easier to change belts. If you have an area that can get a little dusty go for it. through sharpening this way I have found that making knives is possible w/o much more equipment.

Lansky system w/ extra stones about 50$
1 x 30 belt grinder, craftsman + belts 150$
don't forget the leather belts
don't go out and buy a craftsman grinder w/o doing the reseach, my descision was made doing very little homework. It has worked good for me so far and you might not get what you want out of the cheaper models. I have heard mixed reviews.

I can give you info on good places to order from if you would like, drop me an e-mail
 
Originally posted by Paul Janulis
I am getting into trying to learn how to sharpen knives like a pro, but I am still a newbie, so I have some questions.
Click to expand...

I'm a newbie myself, and have been working on learning to make knives (stock removal, not forging). So, I've had to work on learning not only how to sharpen an edge, but how to sharpen an edge where there was no edge with which to begin. I'm hardly the best person to answer you, but I'll give you my own perspective, as a fellow newbie trying to figure out this whole sharpening thing. :D


#1. What is the best tool for you? Do you like rods, or something like the sharpmaker, or do you like stones.
Click to expand...

I've used fixed rods, rod guide sharpeners, different types of stones, and just recently a belt sander. For me, I'll never go back to anything except belt sanding and japanese waterstones. Just yesterday I finished sharpening a friend's knife on my belt sander, and after not 60 seconds of work it'll easily push-cut through three or four layers of 8-10oz cowhide leather (after using a 400 grit belt). I'd like to get an ultra-fine waterstone to hone my edges even further (6000 grit or so).


#2. What is the difference between the different grits. Yes, I understand that the higher the number, the less coarse the grit. But I am having some confusion about this. I always thoought that the angle was what made the difference in sharpness of the blade more so then the grit more so then the grit. The coarser the stone, the more metal it took off. When making your "second edge" (I have absolutely no terminology so bear with me) or the pointy edge, I know you want to use a finer grit. But, my question is, how coarse should I start (what grit), and how fine should I end up?
Click to expand...

The coarser the stone, the more metal that is taken off. But also, the more coarse and ragged the edge. This is where the suggestions for using a microscope come from. After using a coarse grit, the edge will be very jagged. After a medium grit, the edge will be cleaned up quite a bit, but still very rough. After honing and/or stropping, the edge will, ideally, be perfectly smooth. That smooth edge will cut better than a rough edge, as a rule, but it all depends on the intended use of the knife. Starting coarseness depends on how badly nicked the edge is. If it's badly nicked, a really coarse grit will be needed. Otherwise, starting with a nice, fine grit is best. I finished with 400 grit on my sanding belt, but 600 would be even better. A 1000 grit japanese waterstone (which I read is equivalent to about 500 grit US?) would be similar. For final honing, if you want the sharpest of sharp, a 6000-8000 grit japanese waterstone and/or stropping with rouge should be used.


#3. Proper angling. I know that different angles serve different purposes. All I have been doing is taking the corner of a piece of paper, folding it once, then twice. That's my 1st edge angle, used mostly on my coarse stone, then followed up on my fine stone. My 2nd edge angle is much larger, the corner of the paper only folded once. I use the fine grit to make my point edge. Yes, I know this is fairly primative, but it seems to have worked. I would like to get a little more precise on my angling though, as not all angles are appropriate for all types of edges. What angles do you guys go by, and for what types of edges?
Click to expand...

I've been using around 22 degrees (your twice-folded corner), give or take. Seems like that works well for a general purpose knife. Larger angles for "rough cutting" (eg, an axe?), smaller angles for "fine cutting" (eg, a scalpel). Smaller angles will lose their edge quickly (a surgeon often uses multiple scalpels in a single surgery), larger angles will not cut as well. But it's pointless, generally, to put a really super-fine edge on a thick blade (a scalpel does what it does because it's paper-thin as well as having an ultra-fine edge). So I've been going by the rule that thicker blades can do ok with larger angles, thinner blades should use smaller angles. So, an average blade... an average angle. =)


Please critique me. Is there a better technique? What technique do you use on stones, and how would that differ with other tools? Also, Wet or dry stone? How hard do you press the blade, if at all? How fast do you slide the blade accross the stone?
Click to expand...

I think that technique is ok. What really matters is the final result, not how one achieves said result. Which, of course, is why a hundred people may use a hundred different sharpening methods. *grin* That more or less sounds like the method I use with stones (including pulling for the other edge, since I prefer doing it all right-handed as well). Lubricant depends on the type of stone. Oil stones should always have oil, japanese waterstones should always be soaked in water, et cetera. I keep moderate, even pressure on the blade, and slide it at a moderate speed. I guess I'm just a moderate kinda guy. =)

And, of course, read all the sharpening FAQs, search for previous posts on sharpening, et cetera, as others have mentioned.
 
Paul,

Based on your questions, I believe you understand the issues very well. You're not going to get pat answers to all those question, so try everything!

One other note:

If you are serious avoid the Lansky/Gatco jigs and anything that sharpens both sides at once. The Lansky tools are just great for doing it at home. No question. But if you are doing blades for others, don't go there. I may not make any friends with that, but so be it.

Here's the problem with the Lansky/Gatco tools:

gatco.gif


As you can see geometry will not let you get a consistent edge angle with them. Yes you can move the clamp and that helps, but if your are talking about a top notch edge, the edge width you form has to be the same the whole length of the blade.

The Microscope is so you can see the sanding lines along the edge while learning. Whether you use a coarse edge or a fine one, the sanding lines should be the same.

Steve
 
Sando is right the angle does change. You will get a different angle as you hone further from the jig. I like this fact because it is how I like my skinning knives. If I have to cut through tendon or up to a bone I use the section of the blade closest to the handle where if I'm cutting through fat or non-hairy skin, I use the forward part of the blade. More steel behind the edge the more stress it can take... Should you avoid them if your serious? depends on why a change of angle is so bad and what your using your knives for. If your sharpening for friends move the blade in the jig to cut down on angle change and remember that if you are sharpening knives for other people they don't care about their knives in the same way that you do, you won't loose any of them. If your serious, understand what the jigs do and decide for yourself. I would consider the belt sander, because you can get what ever edge you want, its quick, do other things with it, and all the other things mentioned above.
 
Mattd,

That is soooo cool! :cool:

Never thought of that, but it's an excellent idea for a hunter. Since you skin with the belly and cut tough stuff near the guard.

Steve
 
and another thing. Sando is a fine knife maker and someone I look up to. He has helped me many times here and I hope some day to help him. As I am green, I must add that I am very respectfully providing another angle to Sando's. No pun intended
 
I'm no edgepro pro, but looking at the design I don't think it has the same issues. the blade is moving and can stay a constant distance. The trick (IF you want an exact angle) is to follow the belly. But I really don't know how hard that is on the edgepro.

I think people think I'm kidding about the coin trick, but it's not that hard to master. Your angle guide is right there in your pocket.

I could never use a stone before. But using the coins I get knives so sharp I scare myself.

Of course as matt said, belt grinders and a leather belt is hard to beat.


Steve
 
Originally posted by Sando


Oh yeah, buy this and use it!

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog_name=CTLG&product_id=63-1133
Click to expand...

Out of stock at the online store, but I've got at least 3 Radio Shack stores within easy driving distance. Thanks for the tip -- I was in the first stages of looking for a good jeweller's loupe to examine my edges to help me get over that last hump in the learning curve. Been at it in serious fashion for about 6 months now, and while I've learned to make some great edges (thanks in part to you fellas on this forum), I'm looking to get that last little fanatical bit...

I sent a knife to Ben Dale for his sharpening demo on Monday of last week . If I'm as impressed as I think I might be, I'll be buying one of his Edge Pro's.

Mark
 
Mark,

You're serious aren't you! The microscope is a cheap little deal, but really fits the bill for inspection.

Hey, you didn't try the coin trick did you. I told I don't get any respect. ;) ;) ;)

http://knives.mylamb.com/calc.htm

Steve
 
I have another question...

I read Sando's link on the coin trick (awesome link Sando, thanks!), but I am confused on one thing...

Let's say I am getting a great 17 degree secondary angle for a nice razor sharp edge. What should my primary angle be?

I am finding great formulas for secondary angles, but none for primary amgles.

Thanks for the info guys...keep it commin!:)
 
Paul,

Primary, secondary?

I don't double bevel. Heck it's hard enough to get one good one! From the sound of your questions I think you think it's necessary. I don't think most makers do that.

Personally I get a sort of final convex edge for my 'secondary' bevel. Here's at how I look at it:


burr.gif


First there's the burr development and removal. There are a number of methods to get to that point.

Don and Arcadia gave you some great links.

Now after the burr comes off things aren't as good as they can be. Very light stropping will clean that edge right up. If the edge was well made we're only talking a couple of passes on the strop and your done. Too much or done wrong on the strop and you're toast.

Regarding stones, that's covered in those other links.

Steve
 
Originally posted by GarageBoy
What about the edge pro?
Click to expand...

The angle will vary with the edge pro also. This isn't necessarily a bad thing if you keep using it for your knives. If you go back and forth from one 'jig' sharpener to another (or even stones) it could get tedious as you have to reprofile for every machine.
 
The angle is not supposed to vary with the Edge Pro as you move the blade across the bench as you sharpen so you're not moving the stone far from the starting point.

The Edgepro will let you get a super sharp edge without a lot of know how. Just watch the video a few times and practice a little. The trick is using very light pressure as you move on to the finer stones. If you press to hard you'll roll the edge.
 
Originally posted by Sando
Mark,

You're serious aren't you! The microscope is a cheap little deal, but really fits the bill for inspection.

Hey, you didn't try the coin trick did you. I told I don't get any respect. ;) ;) ;)

http://knives.mylamb.com/calc.htm

Steve
Click to expand...

Serious as a heart attack. I stopped at Radio Shack tonight. The kid said he'd have one there for me tomorrow. And no, I haven't tried the coin trick yet, largely because I've not been weaned from using an edge guide yet. I've got both of the Razor Edge guides and I use them religiously for all but cutting the initial relief, which I've learned to do freehand since the Razor Edge guides can only cut that flat of an angle if you have a blade about 3 inches or more wide. I've got a Lansky (or one of its knock-offs... not sure, and I don't feel like digging it out to look!), but I never did like that thing...

I've got to hand it to you though, the coin trick look's like a great idea.

Shalom,
Mark
 
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