New BK20 - Ka-Bar please stop mutilating tips of the blades! Third bad one for me.

Yeah the 9 and 4 are the same thickness. 56-58 isn't that hard. 1095 in kitchen knives can go up into the mid 60's in the custom world. 56-58 is sort of maximized for toughness. The BK14 is the same steel at the same hardness and just a little bit thinner. Check out this vid. I am not suggesting that people bend their blades deliberately but 1095 at 56-58 is some impressively tough stuff.

https://youtu.be/QlJ3wLwxIm8

[video=youtube;QlJ3wLwxIm8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlJ3wLwxIm8[/video]
 
That is an impressive video. Thanks for posting it. One tough knife.

According to my quick calculations, the BK9 blade is about 14% thicker than the blade on the '14. And the BK20 is a massive 50% thicker. Although I have not yet seen a 14 or a 20, I imagine that both the 9 and the 20 are probably a bit wider than the 14. So it is fair to assume that the bigger Beckers are very strong knives.

I like those little 14s. I also like the idea of a BK15. I'd probably pick the 15 for the things I like to do.

Hope all you guys had a good July 4th.
 
I think the same way as BFK and apply the same reasoning as well.

Both of the BK21's I received had uneven grinds, particularly at the tip, like the OP's BK20. One was considerably worse then the other, I chose to keep it however because the other had horribly uneven primary grinds near the ricasso. My Kabar Hinderance came with an uneven final grind(sharpening) and terribly uneven swedge grinds as well. I chose to keep both though because I liked the designs and didnt want to deal with the further hassle and expense of returning them(again for the BK21). These experiences did lower my opinion of Kabar unfortunately and will likely prevent me from buying another of their products because I expect more from knifes at this price point. I will say though, that both as users have been tough and reliable thus far despite the poor grinds and Ethan and Rick's designs are top notch.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if this issue is something that is a big concern to Ethan, but of course he'd be unlikely to discuss it here. It would be interesting to know what alternatives there may be when it comes to selecting a manufacturer to make your knives.

If I designed knives and was in a similar situation, I guess I'd be inclined to work with the partners I already had in an effort to reach perfection... not only because of the current association, but also for continuing a tradition that so many end-users hold dear.

I admit that I like participating in the 'Becker KaBar self-reliant independent outdoorsy strong reliable proven' club. Not only are the Becker knives really practical, reliable and beautiful tools, I get to have fun on this forum and feel like I'm supporting something worthwhile with a bunch of really good folks.

But I know that my home-made saw-blade knives..... or my Chinese $14 machete in its squashed pipe sheath, along with my Chinese Mora lookalike and a Chinese locking folder are probably all I really need to help me in my much-loved outdoor activities. (Although I'd always grab my '2 or my '9 as a first choice if practical). Heh.... I have had a few Mora knives and they have generally been excellent. At present I have a fancy one that looks a bit military-like in a green plastic sheath. A couple of times now I've been butchering an animal with it, and I've found it doesn't take long to get as blunt as a bike seat when I'm working close to bones. I've found that the Chinese one works pretty well and I now take it out instead.... and I bought several of these on a local internet auction site for around NZ$7 each (only about 20% of what the Mora cost me, and I didn't pay full retail for the Mora). I have some Chinese folders that I bought on the internet that cost me from NZ$5 to $20 delivered that are as good as, if not better than, many of the other knives I've owned or handled. I simply can't fault most of these knives.

Generally any steel knife is vastly better than the tools made from rock, bone or shell that our ancestors used.... and those guys spent a heck of a lot of time in the outdoors compared to most of us.

Yeah it is a pity that there are a few grinds that could be better. Whether these grinds are indicative of bigger underlying problems or not, in the end they probably do reduce Kabar sales turnover, and possibly help to pave the way for overseas manufacture or maybe even dropping out of the game completely.

At least I have enough Beckers to last me the rest of my life... and which should then be enjoyed by younger family members.

Geez.... I need to get back to work before someone blocks my internet access :)
 
on the subject of knives, their prices and expectations, just a quick note:

Recently bought 2 BRKTs, had been looking at them for quite a while and finally purchased. The biggest of the 2 has an 8" convex blade, and was more expensive than my BK20. Since it was touted as a camp knife, when I had the chance I did some wood hacking. Some dry branches in the backyard to make a fire, none of them reached a 2" diameter, average was probably around 1.5". Some light chopping, regular battoning and cross battoning, a bit of hard work but not abuse in my understanding. After the cutting was done, an inspection revealed a small bend at the edge about 1 inch from the tip, like 1/8" wide and a couple mm high. Not huge, mind you, but noticeable, and not something that will make me send the knife back, but totally unexpected.

I've had uneven secondary bevels on my KBs, but none of them have taken a set after such a light workout. Just a bit of enjoyable sharpening with diamonds takes care of the issue. Go ahead and enjoy your knives knowing that they are true performers, and take delight in the very therapeutic exercise of free handing a good edge.
 
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zuluninja said:
on the subject of knives, their prices and expectations, just a quick note:

Go ahead and enjoy your knives knowing that they are true performers, and take delight in the very therapeutic exercise of free handing a good edge.
Click to expand...

Nicely said.

I smiled when I saw you used both inches and millimetres in the same sentence. You are measurement ambidextrous like a lot of people I know. I was raised in an 'inch' environment.... and then our country went metric. I have a good picture of an inch or a foot in my mind, and I generally judge hunting ranges in yards. But millimetres are really handy when doing building or engineering projects because I find them easier to divide and multiply.
 
Hello everyone, sorry for the late answer, I was on the camp training weekend at the mountain cottage from my trainer. I took new BK20 for some field testing. While the tip is this bad, there is no point to keep it in unused condition.
I chopped some branches and sharpen it for some canvas stance around the camp fire. Also some bread and meat slicing etc. And I also manage almost cut my own ass with it :-D, like some amateur idiot :-(. I wiped the blade on my shorts in the back and cut my short in half :-D. Luckily nothing else UFFF :-D. Chopping is very good, better then BK9, but for the small precise sharpening of the branches, it was little bit front heavy, my little finger hurt little bit after two branches. But the knife is really sharp (except for the bad tip of course) based on my violated shorts...:-D. Also I like the thicker handle, I have bigger hands. Tang is thick like BK2, so handle is also thicker. But I will put some stippling on it, like on my BK9 and 15. I like stippling. Also I ordered some red and orange kydex for some liners to put it on all my Beckers. And I really like the new smooth coating, it is very durable. After I washed the knife back at
home, it is hardly noticeable any usage at all. Also my new 21 chopped 5 small dead trees previously for the camp fire two month ago, and the coating is also in very good shape.
Now I want new BK9 with this new coating. Damn, there goes my "finished" Becker knifes collection plan... O:-).

Mr. Becker, thank you for you kindly response. I think, that you are talking about the not properly hardened BK7 from my soldier friend, right? :-) It was me, you helped me to solve the reclamation at Ka-Bar.
Also I am the same guy, who invited you to IWA 2015 back in 2014...I don't know, if any other guy from Czech is here on the Becker forum.
I forgot to wrote rest of the story about the new BK7 back then - it took some time to get the new one, but now my friend owns the BK7, which travelled around the whole world. It's awesome.
Ka-Bar send a new BK7 on my address in Czech. Package went to Chicago and then, instead of Prague aiport, travelled to Tokio (I am not kidding, maybe I have somewhere in my computers
screenshot of that tracking number) and from the Tokio it went to the Bangkok in Taiwan and stayed there on the customs for like month and half. And because knives like this are forbbiden there, it went back to Ka-Bar.
So I emailed to the nice lady at Ka-Bar address from my friend from Arizona. And he resent me the package through USPS. It cost some money, but the BK7 finally arrived after 3 months.
And it's in active service in the Czech Army since then :-). With 100 % score.
I received (through my friend in USA) 5 knives in last 3-4 months including the new BK20+5 and 21 previously and two other knives for my friend. Sending knife with private package through
USPS is not a problem, if someone labels the package properly for safe custom clearence without any additional tax problems...Usually it arrives in 10-15 days.
But the BK20 is already sold out and most probably the bad tip grinding is not enough for new piece, so I will have to leave it like it is.

But since the bad grinded tips are really common issue according to other guys here, please yeall a complaint about it on Ka-Bar director and on the grinding guys too! For all of us affected by this problem.
My score 3 bad tips (two really horrible) from 6 knives is really poor and it really lowered my trust in Ka-Bar quality control and precision. And I always liked the Ka-Bar knives, they are legendary.
I had Ka-Bar wallpaper on my PC with NextGen 1222 back in 1999 IT class in school and my friends call me Kabar as a nickame since then. Some people even think, that I have customs knifes with my nickname on it
(they don't now Ka-Bar knife company of course and origin of my nickname). I really like very good quality stuff. I am avid shooter and I use almost exclusively Heckler & Koch guns, because of they excellent quality and reliability.
I never found any issue on my H&K pistol in material or processing. But some top notch premium quality knifes are too much expensive for me (BlackHeart from USA, Milan Pokorny from Czech), so I like to use Beckers, 1095 steel is good and the handles are just awesome design. Almost like my H&K P30LU handle. Very ergonomic. And the blade desing are superb too.

Stephen Coote, thank you for your greetings from New Zealand. Are you from Nelson? Tongariro national park in New Zealand is the first place on whole Earth which I want to visit sometime in my life in the future.
Of course that we hunt - we have second best guns laws in the whole world (after 6 states from USA). Almost 300000 people owns gun licence (it's simillar to driving licence) and they are over 750 000 registered legal guns in Czech
(for 10,8 million population it's really good I think). Everything from 22 LR to 50 BMG is legal. Only silencers and full auto guns are forbiden. And expansive ammunition too. But everything other is fine.
I CCW my pistol or revolver everywhere I go. I am armed to the teeth :-). Also we are the best armed nation in whole Europe. Slovakia and Slovenia is good too. Idiots from EU parliament keep trying to forbid any weapons for citizen. People in UK for example are totally unarmed. Totally nonsense. Also no types of knives are forbidden here, everything is legal, every size and every shape and system. No problem. Luckilly for us.
About the hunting - you need to have hunting permit for this (my friend is a hunter), but hunting is very traditional here and we have some overpopulated wild pigs here, so 300 000 must be shoot this year to reduce the population.
But bow hunting is not legal here :-(.

Next time I will test the new BK5. The whole knive is amazingly light and sharp and the whole design is really good for fighting knife. I am studying russian martial art Systema and we practice a lot with knifes.
And our custom made metal training dull knifes are almost identical in shape to the BK5 :-). They were designed by some russian Systema experts. So I will put my BK15 to the side for some time and I will test new BK5 extensively.
And I will make some new pictures after I will make some new stippling on new Beckers.
 
Interesting post thanks Mkabar. I think it is wonderful that people think that your Kabar knives have been custom printed with your name :)

Yep.... I am from Nelson, which is quite a long way from Tongariro National Park. I've driven through the Tongariro area, but I've never hunted or hiked there. Not far away is Waiouru where there is a military camp and a military museum. So if you ever do get down here, you might want to check out the museum.

Funny about nearly cutting yourself with the new knife. I cut myself with my new BK9, which is pretty unusual for me. I had just given it a light sharpening, and I was wiping some olive oil on the edge with a tissue. The blade sliced right through the bunched up tissue and nicked my finger. I didn't have much pressure on the tissue either.

I have a Brno .22 rimfire which was made in your area - probably in the early 1950's. It is of exceptionally high quality.

It is odd how laws differ around the world. The New Zealand public can't generally own handguns.... but having silencers fitted to our rifles is no problem. We can also bow hunt if we have the urge.

I'm pleased that you don't seem to be too depressed about your knife grind problems and that they haven't suppressed your sense of humor. I reckon your Beckers will serve you well.
 
bearfacedkiller said:
Yeah the 9 and 4 are the same thickness. 56-58 isn't that hard. 1095 in kitchen knives can go up into the mid 60's in the custom world. 56-58 is sort of maximized for toughness. The BK14 is the same steel at the same hardness and just a little bit thinner. Check out this vid. I am not suggesting that people bend their blades deliberately but 1095 at 56-58 is some impressively tough stuff.

https://youtu.be/QlJ3wLwxIm8

[video=youtube;QlJ3wLwxIm8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlJ3wLwxIm8[/video]
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Literally just saw that video yesterday

It definitely proves how good 1095 cv is
 
Just to add one more thought to the kabar quality discussion:
I tend to separate the heat treat aspect from the grinding aspect - maybe wrongfully? I figure as long as the heat treat is done well, I can work on the grind portion. The bk14 video demonstrates that the toughness is there, and experience tells me that the edge holding is as expected - so heat treat is good! The grind - while a disappointment - is aesthetic/cosmetic and will quickly be sharpened out. Be glad the issue is at the tip of a large chopper - likely the least important part of the sharpened edge.
 
I'll give my .02 on this since I've not had a perfect production blade ever! That being said, I haven't had any quite as off as the ones you posted. I have had to re-profile almost every knife tip I have owned to get them to where I want them. Now mind you this takes me all of 15-30min depending on how far off the grind or tip is. Some stones, paper, and strops and boom. Up to my standard. I think you are having a bad luck run however since yours are pretty off IMO. I would just take some time, go slow and re-profile those tips to even up the grind a bit. Or just use it and over time with sharpening you will get it evened out. My best and most even edges are on the knives I used the most because they get sharpened a lot.
 
I had the same issue with my BK15 and BK5, more so on my BK5. I emailed KABAR and they told me that happens sometimes and unfortunately there isn't anything they could do. I wasn't that disappointed though, I'm still stoked about owning 2 awesome Becker knives.
 
My 15 and 5 are OK including 9. But 2 and new 21+20 are bad, BK20 is worst - edge is totally off to the left side on the tip (visible on the photos), to grind this off, it would change the shape of the blade on the end.
You are OK with it, because you payed normal price for it. I would be OK with that too in that case. Imagine that you paid way more than 1000 dolars for BK21 and 20, and the tips would be that bad.
You would be pissed of too. And that´s my reality. I payed 448 dolars for 21 and 20 including international shipping and for me here in Czech, that amount is far more than 1000 USD for you, it´s like 1500 in USA. And I am not kidding about it.
For me, the solution is simple, if that´s happens sometimes (every second time according to my experiences) and Ka-Bar can´t do anything about this, so I will stop buying knives from them. It´s that simple. After this BK20 failure I don´t trust Ka-Bar anymore :-(.
 
MKabar said:
My 15 and 5 are OK including 9. But 2 and new 21+20 are bad, BK20 is worst - edge is totally off to the left side on the tip (visible on the photos), to grind this off, it would change the shape of the blade on the end.
You are OK with it, because you payed normal price for it. I would be OK with that too in that case. Imagine that you paid way more than 1000 dolars for BK21 and 20, and the tips would be that bad.
You would be pissed of too. And that´s my reality. I payed 448 dolars for 21 and 20 including international shipping and for me here in Czech, that amount is far more than 1000 USD for you, it´s like 1500 in USA. And I am not kidding about it.
For me, the solution is simple, if that´s happens sometimes (every second time according to my experiences) and Ka-Bar can´t do anything about this, so I will stop buying knives from them. It´s that simple. After this BK20 failure I don´t trust Ka-Bar anymore :-(.
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If these prices are real I'd consider doing a nice vacation in the USA, buy a few blades and fly back. Sell a few to friends keep some for yourself and make even a little profit on top of a free vacation.

Also there's a big American online retailer who has a home page for your German neighbors, which sells quite a few Becker models for not too many Euros. It could be they don't ship to your country but maybe you got a German friend.
 
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This prices are real. And airplane tickets to the USA cost over 1000 USD here. And as I stated previously, it´s too expensive for me. (Btw I am IT technician, I have two jobs as a network administrator and I am repairing computers and laptops at home as a third job). For example, food or gas here in Czech cost almost the same amount of money like in the Germany, but in the Germany usual salary is like 3-5 thousand Euro. Here in Czech, normal salary is 600-700 Euro. So get your numbers yourself. German IT guy can buy 5-10 plane tickets to the USA from one salary. I need salary from two months for one ticket. I don´t know about this retailer with German homepage for German customers. Shipping from Germany to the Czech is no problem. 3-4 days only. And I think that a suitcase full of blades would be little bit suspicious on X-Rays :-D, even if it would be luggage for the cargo storage in the plane. My friend got me 4 knives back in 2012 from N.Y. trip, but 4 are just only 4 (BK7, 17, 2 and TDI Hellfire).
 
I've traveled from the US to Germany with a suitcase full of swords 3 months after 9/11. No biggie. As long is its not in carry on, or explosives or restricted military equipment TSA doesn't care.
Customs in your own country is another thing of course.

Let's play with your numbers.
450USD for 2 knives?
Let's say you get 20 In the US and they cost you 3000 USD including flight.
You can sell them for 9000 in your country (2 for 450). Leaves USD 6000 for hotel, disneyland and profit.

Either way just have a look at www.amazon.de
(Forum rules don't allow to mention them but since in this case it's not harming business of our forum sponsors it might be fine. Please delete if I'm wrong)

In addition I've send knives to German friends. The shipping last year was $70 for 4 pounds of snail mail. Can't imagine it to be much more to your country. Are you or your friend buying them for MSRP or actual market price?
 
BK20 was 200 + 68 shipping and BK21 was 140 + 40 shipping. And all your selling theory has couple small issues - for 300-400 USD you can buy custom handmade knives here from excellent czech bladesmiths with premium quality, and no one here cares about some production blades from USA with bad tips :-D in this price range. I am definitelly biggest Becker Czech fan here :-). BK21 can be bought in Czech for 200 USD. So I got it 20 USD cheaper even with the shipping. And BK20 was completely unavailable here, so 268 with shipping was only way to get it. I don´t know anyone with BK21 in Czech and I am a member of Czech Blade group on FB, where is almost 9000 members. And BK21 is available here. But for that price, you can get something bigger and handmade from springsteel with hammon line. I will post couple of pics later, I was on bladesmiths exibition on one Czech castle last Saturday. Really nice pieces was there. Btw your math is little bit bad - for 9000 USD you need 40 knives not 20 (2 for 450) and half of them are unavailable already - BK20) and you forgot that 20 x 200 is 4000 purchase only for the BK20 if they would be still available + 20 x 140 purchase for BK21 = 2800 USD. So it would be only 2200 of profit and that´s the cost of the two airplane tickets. Not mentioning that you would sell max 3 pieces in Czech. No more in that price category. So no trip here in these case. Believe me, if it would be just that simple, I would done it many years ago :-).
 
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bearfacedkiller said:
Now when I see a knife from any maker with uneven bevels I just have to ask myself. Is this the attention to detail that has been afforded my knife through the whole process? If they are rushing through the sharpening and final QC process then what else are they rushing through? It has always been my understanding and I have been told by more than one maker that sharpening is a part of the process that you have to work up to and that it is not where you start. This means that that wonky bevel may be the work of one of the more experienced employees. What does that possibly say? I love Ethan's designs and this post is not meant to state that they are not producing a quality product. I truly believe they are. It is just to show that while one person may see a wonky edge and see it as a sign that the knife is meant to be an affordable hard use tool another person might see that wonky edge and see it as a sign that QC may be suspect through other stages of the process.

Feel free to agree, disagree or be indifferent. Just don't shoot me. I just like the conversation. :D :o
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Well I agree, and I think they really are rushing through a lot of things... I won't quibble too much with the designs, but the grinding on Beckers is way worse than on Ontario, which is about as dirt-cheap as it gets...: All the Ontarios I have seen were straight. So far, I know of at least 4 different BK-9s that displayed obvious cooling curving, including mine... That is a side curve that goes throughout the blade...

Cooling curving is flat-out unacceptable, yet they routinely go out the door, which clearly shows this is well-known and quite deliberate...

One of the more interesting possible reasons I heard for the persistent cooling curving was related to the wildly uneven primary grind height: It was very uneven on mine: Off by at least 1/8", and maybe even 1/4"... Apparently when this is carried beyond a certain point, there is such a disparity in metal shape that this is why these blades are so prone too cooling curving...

Sure it has no real effect on function, but if they are made so carelessly, you kind of wonder what there is to be enthusiastic about... I think if an $8 hammer came out with that kind curving in the handle, it would not make out the door... Yet for an $80-$100 knife it is no problem? The very fact Ontario do better indicates there definitely is a problem, plus all the valid things you mentioned...

Gaston
 
The bad BK20 was last drop for me. I will never buy any factory produced knife. The quality is not enough for this insane prices (other more expensive brands then Becker). I could have a beautiful flawless BlackHeart instead of 6 Ka-Bar with three bad tips.
Next time, if I will need any new knife (6 Beckers and 10 other folders, TDI, multitool etc. are already enough I think) I will go with custom handmade piece with possibility to check the knife carefully previously to buying it.
 
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