New BS 889 Fails Spinewhack

[Vivi]

I've been looking to get the B/S 889 for a long time now. I've liked the design for a while and the collaboration brought the pricepoint within my reach.

Today I received an all black 889 from a trade. Very happy with the knife in most aspects...grippy scales, great ergos, good heft and it cuts well based on the minute or two of whittling I did with it.

However, one of the first things I did with the knife after hearing numerous reports of defective locks was to test out the lock. I put pressure on the spine with my hand, it didn't fold. However, a light spinewhack (Using wrist swings) to a hard surface like a piece of wood will cause the lock to collapse consistently. I can use full arm swings on my Kershaw Leek or Boker Trance and the lock-up doesn't budge.

I really want to EDC this knife, but I won't if the lock is going to behave this way ( got this as a hard use folder). Is this something that I can have Buck fix? It would be a shame if such a great knife saw no use.

 

[A.P.F.]

Vivi, I am just wondering if the knife has been broken in yet. Does the lock engage the very first part of the tang, or is it further along? In any event, I am sure that Buck will look after you.

 

[Vivi]

The liner engages in the middle of the tang.

I also noticed there is no BOS stamp on the knife. Do the B/S knives have a different heat treatment or was his stamp not put on the knife for other reasons?

 

[wh4f]

I also noticed there is no BOS stamp on the knife. Do the B/S knives have a different heat treatment or was his stamp not put on the knife for other reasons?

I believe only the ATS-34/BG-42 knives have the BOS stamp.
The 889 does not.

 

[Messersmith]

Just curious, what is the date stamp on your 889? They have done some changes over the years to fix lockup issues. Like a thicker liner sometime before 2005 and I believe more "spring" or bend in the liner so it takes more force to close.

Maybe it was traded because it had a bad lockup?

I'm sure Buck would help you out under their warranty.

 

[jimmer_5]

I believe only the ATS-34/BG-42 knives have the BOS stamp.
The 889 does not.

THis is correct - we put the BOS flame stamp on all our high end steels -
ATS-34, 154CM, CPM154, BG-42, and S30V.

The standard 420HC does not get a BOS stamp, but this does not mean that the heat treat is any worse. The stamp is really ther to tell the user what kind of steel the blade is made of. The BOS stamp is really just a reminder that Paul Bos oversees all of Buck's heat treating. He also runs his own heat treat business out of the Buck Factory and is a heck of a guy to talk to. I hope this clears it up.

As for your lockup issues, you are always welcome to send the knife back if you feel it doesn't meet your standards. You can send it back to us with a note, or you can contact Joe Houser for more information (he is our head of Consumer Relations and a moderator on this forum who posts regularly).

I would also suggest, however, that you consider how you intend to use the knife before getting overly concerned with the results of a 'tap test'.

Buck is a company that is extremely concerned about safety, so please take my comments here as my personal opinion, and NOT as a statement of Buck's policy. The "tap test" has become something of an unofficial industry standard for tesing the lockup strength of a linerlock. However, in the actual use of a knife, no manufacturer would EVER recommend hammering on the back of the blade -this is an unsafe practice, and if you want to hammer with the back of your blade, get a fixed blade. As I said before, if you have any concern we would be happy to take care of the problem for you.

The liners on the model 889 and 882 were thickened (to strengthen the lockup) from .040 inch to .050 inch and I would imagine the knife you have probably has the thicker liners. Good luck!!

 

[Scott Hartman]

Forgive me guys, what is this spinewack? and how is it applied in the use of a knife? With the blade open, you hit the spine of the blade against a fixed object?

 

[DarrylS]

...That's just how it's done Scott...Just the term "spinewack" makes me think of abuse...I've never understood how abuse of a knife can determine it's ability to do what it was intended to do...

 

[wh4f]

if you want to hammer with the back of your blade, get

A HAMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I fixed your post for you Jimmer

 

[wh4f]

...That's just how it's done Scott...Just the term "spinewack" makes me think of abuse...I've never understood how abuse of a knife can determine it's ability to do what it was intended to do...

A++++++++++

 

[Scott Hartman]

I guess I just own too many tools to follow the logic with using the spinewhack. Is this a maneuver applied in personal defence or pounding tent stakes?? Do manufacturers test their knives for unimaginable and unintended uses?? Should they??

 

[chickentrax]

I thought I knew what this 'test' was, but after reading all the replies here, it's unclear...Are you "whacking" the knife against the hardwood, or whacking the hardwood against the knife???

Either way, it doesn't sound very safe...

 

[DarrylS]

...Trax...Ya open yer knife and turn it up-side down and "WHACK" it against the hardwood...You're hittin' the spine of the knife on the hardwood instead of the cutting edge that was designed for use...If the blade closes that's icky...Neat test huh??...

 

[A.P.F.]

I have been following the 'spine whack' issue for some time and have concluded that it causes more trouble than it is worth. STR is a person who's opinion I have come to value, so I'll quote his view on the matter.

I'll just post some of my thoughts from another earlier thread.

I think that people forget that the knife should speak for itself in the end based on the condition its in each time its cleaned and maintained and that all knives are as unique as we are as individuals. Just like people they age, they wear, their skin cracks, they get blemishes, and from this natural aging as well as use and abuse it more often than not has nothing to do with how well it was made or by whom when you develop a problem with one. With that said, circumstances are sometimes responsible for lock failures/defeats and accidents and not the knives or the makers of said knives. Many makers and manufacturers get the blame in the end but its not usually the case at all and I think most guys using their knives hard, or spine whacking them needlessly know this all too well. Neglect on the end line users part is many times the real fault/reason as to the condition of a knife when it has problems. I mean lets face it if you have a car and don't take care of it very well, don't expect it to function flawlessly all the time. It won't and neither will your knives. Many end line users forget that there is more to maintaining a folder or fixed blade than just the cutting edge.

Also, we are all only human. It doesn't really matter how many books the maker of a knife has written, how famous the maker is or how much metallurgical skill, knowledge, or experience they have, or if they have mechanical engineering degrees or anything else regarding how well made the knife was when it was shipped out to an end line user. When it comes to the individual knives and circumstances behind why and when a lock fails you have to look at the knife and many times as Sal just said in his post these things are not evident outside where they can be seen. I see them all from all levels of the craft and in price ranges from very very high end expensive knives to the lowest priced China made knives on the market and yes even some of my own and for some normal as well as bizarre reasons.

Locks can defeat and they certainly do. They need to be looked over and even tested over time to make sure you are still getting that same level of function and that they still deserve that trust you have handed over to them regarding your fingers. I am not a big fan of spine whacking, but an occasional spine tap is a necessary part of testing IMO. In the event that one defeats its most always when you least expect it and when your guard is down which is why I always stress that for hard use knives folders do one thing fixed blades don't do and thats fold. Doesn't matter if its a top line axis lock or the gents liner lock. You should always be wary of them regardless of any hype you might read or actually believe. This goes for all locking type folders. I'm sure people can relate to this that have carried a knife for years.

All manner of things can happen to change the lock up of a folder. If its a trusted daily knife it deserves some daily or at least some routine weekly care and going over and your fingers are worth that believe me. Pocket lint can take the most trustworthy well built lockback and turn it all around for you in the time it takes to flick it open and use it to cut down a cardboard box to fit in the trash can. And we read reports of that nature several times or more a year. In the time I have been a member here we have seen every lock type on video at one time or another fail spine whacks from the axis, down to the liner lock and all in between.

I think you can learn all you need to know about your lock without the need for whacking the spine but if you want to whack it hey, its your knife.

STR

 

[Messersmith]

I personally think a "spinewack" is a valid test. Not perfect, but it's easy and repeatable. I expect my locking folders to resist closing if the back of the blade is tapped or there is pressure applied to the spine.

 

[Vivi]

THis is correct - we put the BOS flame stamp on all our high end steels -
ATS-34, 154CM, CPM154, BG-42, and S30V.

The standard 420HC does not get a BOS stamp, but this does not mean that the heat treat is any worse. The stamp is really ther to tell the user what kind of steel the blade is made of. The BOS stamp is really just a reminder that Paul Bos oversees all of Buck's heat treating. He also runs his own heat treat business out of the Buck Factory and is a heck of a guy to talk to. I hope this clears it up.

As for your lockup issues, you are always welcome to send the knife back if you feel it doesn't meet your standards. You can send it back to us with a note, or you can contact Joe Houser for more information (he is our head of Consumer Relations and a moderator on this forum who posts regularly).

I would also suggest, however, that you consider how you intend to use the knife before getting overly concerned with the results of a 'tap test'.

Buck is a company that is extremely concerned about safety, so please take my comments here as my personal opinion, and NOT as a statement of Buck's policy. The "tap test" has become something of an unofficial industry standard for tesing the lockup strength of a linerlock. However, in the actual use of a knife, no manufacturer would EVER recommend hammering on the back of the blade -this is an unsafe practice, and if you want to hammer with the back of your blade, get a fixed blade. As I said before, if you have any concern we would be happy to take care of the problem for you.

The liners on the model 889 and 882 were thickened (to strengthen the lockup) from .040 inch to .050 inch and I would imagine the knife you have probably has the thicker liners. Good luck!!

Thank you for your informative reply.

Under the sb.4 on the back side of the blade is a sidways T sort of logo. Looking at the site this indicates a 2006 knife it seems, so this should be the thicker version, correct?

I know that spinewhacks aren't the end all be all of lock tests, but I personally feel that a light spinewhack should be no problem for a folder to take. I've never had an issue with a 110 or 112 failing from one for instance. The good thing about the 889 is should the lock fail due to the design fingers should still be safe, but I still want what I consider a functional lock. Again, I was only using wrist swings, so it's not the same as hammering or batoning on the spine, it's much more of a light, whippy tap. In normal use only the cutting edge has force applied to it, but there are times when the spine hits things...whether by accident when working in tight spaces, tapping the spine on a cutting board to knock off sliced veggies stuck to the blade or sometimes when cutting cardboard the spine can get loaded when pulling the knife free from the cardboard. To me the purpose of a lock knife is to withstand these kinds of forces, or be stable when making stabbing cuts, as opposed to the way a slipjoint works.

I use my large folders for rigorous use. I keep in mind their limitations, but I definately treat them different than a slipjoint. What I would like to know is does Buck consider this a problem? If I send it in and get it "fixed" or replaced, will what I get back be able to pass the spinewhack "test?"

Either way, thanks for your response. It's immensely helpful to have direct access to company representatives on Bladeforums for these kinds of questions. I value that aspect of these forums highly.

 

[A.P.F.]

I personally think a "spinewack" is a valid test. Not perfect, but it's easy and repeatable. I expect my locking folders to resist closing if the back of the blade is tapped or there is pressure applied to the spine.

I agree that 'taps' and firm pressure (with fingers out of the way) are valid and useful tests and I do the above myself. I am really suggesting that those U-Tube flicks, where you see a fellow doing repeated 3' stroke spine whacks, will make a lock failure a self fulfilling prophesy. I am not suggesting that is what Vivi was doing, Messer, just indicating the violent methods that some use for spine whacks.

 

[Messersmith]

Agreed APF, sounds like we are on the same page.

 

[Buckaholic]

...Trax...Ya open yer knife and turn it up-side down and "WHACK" it against the hardwood...You're hittin' the spine of the knife on the hardwood instead of the cutting edge that was designed for use...If the blade closes that's icky...Neat test huh??...

I have never tried this test before...I have tapped...but just now I whacked the heck outta my 889, 882, 881, and two 889LE knives.
All passed.
But now I am scared that I will go blind

If anyone knows about whacking the sheet outta a Buck...well, let's just say I call it the "Messy Meter Test".

 

[jimmer_5]

Thank you for your informative reply.

Under the sb.4 on the back side of the blade is a sidways T sort of logo. Looking at the site this indicates a 2006 knife it seems, so this should be the thicker version, correct?

I use my large folders for rigorous use. I keep in mind their limitations, but I definately treat them different than a slipjoint. What I would like to know is does Buck consider this a problem? If I send it in and get it "fixed" or replaced, will what I get back be able to pass the spinewhack "test?"

You should have the thicker version. Short of mailing you a micrometer, the easiest way to tell the thickness is by comparison to other Buck knives. The large folding Alpha, Alpha Dorado, and Kalinga Pro all have liners that are .040 inch thick. I am almost positive that your knife has the thicker liners (.050 inch).

It sounds like you're concerned about your knife, so I would recommend that you send it back for replacement. I'm really sorry that this has been a problem for you.

To answer your question, yes, we do consider lock failure to be a serious issue. Our warrantee department would be happy to make this right.

It's interesting that you should bring this up. I work in new products for Buck, and we recently had a new model we were working on that was almost ready for production. We handed the prototype to CJ Buck and after he reviewed it he sent us back to the drawing board to re-engineer the lock. He felt that it wasn't strong enough yet. We had to push back the release date, but the end result was a safer knife for our customers. We take safety very seriously. If you have any more problems, send me an e-mail and I'll amke sure we get you taken care of. Thanks - Jim