New Collectors - What's Important for me to Know?

The best I advice that I can give is to figure out what you like in knives and then buy the pieces that fit what you are looking for. Always keep an eye out for build quality and the maker's service reputation, too.

severedthumbs said:
I didn't know any of the names I mentioned made 100-500 knives a year. that is new info for me.
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I know you are probably being sarcastic to make a point, and you are right. None of the names that you mentioned make 100-500 knives a year. All of the names you mentioned make less than 50 a year, with Fraley being the most prolific at about 50 pieces a year. The rest of the names you mentioned make about 20-30 a year, except for Boguszewski (I actually have no idea how many a year he makes).

Anthony is probably referring to other, more prolific tactical folder makers. I can imagine who he is referring to but I don't want to speculate too heavily.
 
a hint of sarcasam, but I learn new things every day. this is interesting though, how could a "custom" maker make that many knives in a year and maintain a good quality? that sure seems like a lot of knives for one year. who makes that many?
 
Les,

You posted the names of some very fine makers and they were carefully chosen to prove your point.

I would venture to say that you have sold many hundreds more knives than I have ever seen. I would also submit to you that I have tested (sometimes to destruction) more custom folders than probably anyone on bladeforums.

I have seen custom folders with:
Poor locks that don't hold or do not wear properly over time that were literally worn out from the simple act of repeatedly opening and closing the knife!
Poor blade grinding and finish
Stripped screws, both scale and clip, sometimes from the maker!
Locks that do not pass a light spine whack, many of them framelocks!
Knives with blades that refuse to stay centered or with tips that creep out of the handle due to a poorly fitted detent or none at all!

Some from makers on your esteemed list. Most from other makers. At the blade show there are probably 100 people showing handmade tactical folders.
You listed 10 of the best.

Maybe you should consider the makers who make knives you dont buy for the above reasons and rephrase your question? Like I said, 50% of the custom tactical folders don't even begin to approach the better factory knives for precision and engineering. Its hard to compete with a laser cuter and CNC machine when all you have is a drill press and a Bader...

PS-Not one custom maker on your list makes a knife as strong as the Spyderco Chinook I have in my pocket. Period. Not even close.
That does not mean people should stop buying custom knives.
 
if we could stray away from abs for a while, what advice would you give to people collecting folders. Jim Burke, Bogi, Galyean, Lee Williams, Onion, Fraley, etc...
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Again, these are all great makers. A few I consider friends. Only two names on that list are real "Stars" in the custom knife market at this time while others are rising stars. Stars stay bright forever, rising stars can easily burn out.

Ken Onion is the most widely licensed custom knife maker in the world. His name appears on more production knives than ANYONE else. This alone
makes his value higher than most. His innovation and design talent are in the top tier of ANY knife related discussion. He should be lumped in with the Michael Walkers of the business in my opinion.

Did I mention I collect Onion folders in addition to ABS knives?
 
Trying to get back on track here. I've introduced 2 of my friends and one of my partners to collecting. I think the first thing you have to deal with is quality. My wife can certainly tell the difference between a well finished knife and one that just isn't worth the money. If you've been around long enough, and started from scratch, face it... you've made mistakes. Keep one or two of them around to point out the differences between say...a Warren Osborne folder and a lesser maker, better yet a lesser maker with an ATTITUDE! Take them to a knife show and trust me they'll begin to figure it out all by them selves!

Next, is letting them figure out what THEY like. Sometimes this is easy, my one partner is FASCINATED wit autos, that's all he wants. He wants the SO BAD that he traded me last years BLADE winner PLUS $1,000 for an auto by the same maker. One guy I work the is totally into damascus...it just depends. But the key is to let the figure it out and advise them it's like art. Don't buy it unless you like it because you may own it for a VERY LONG time. Admittedly, there have been knives I've bought simply because I was able to get an EXTREMELY good deal. An engraved Lake folder for under $2K comes to mind or a black jade engraved Warenski folder for $1,400. THAT sort of collecting comes only with time and understanding the market, which is where mentoring becomes REALLY important. That's my .02 for now.
 
a hint of sarcasam, but I learn new things every day. this is interesting though, how could a "custom" maker make that many knives in a year and maintain a good quality? that sure seems like a lot of knives for one year. who makes that many?
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Cmon. You can figure that one out yourself.
 
Jose Reyes said:
Good thread, Kevin. This is my advice from another thread but I will give my perspective to any questions asked. This is a pretty tight knit community so I expect there will be a lot of help offered. We all have our preferences, and perhaps biases, but if we can help the new collector along it will be worth our while in the long run.

"IMHO, a new collector should focus on learning about good fit and finish, the subtleties of design, blade geometry, forging practice/ht and the pros and cons of the various steels/materials popularly used. Do your homework and ask a lot of questions from makers and established collectors who own the style of knives that interest you. Try to make it to shows or visit custom knife shops where you can handle the knives in person to see the difference in balance and ergonomics. Bide your time before you begin to purchase but when you feel ready then try to save up for the highest quality knives you can afford, even if it means buying only a few pieces a year. Try to be patient and (resist impulse buying)."

I want to stress the be patient part, but I do feel this will take some experience before you settle in and decide what you really like, so expect a few bumps in the road.
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I agree with Jose.
Be patience.

To start a collection, try to determine how much you will comfortably be able to spend in say a year. Read, study, participate on forums, and ask questions.
Then buy the best quality of the knives that fit your taste that your budget will allow.

You will have a good start.
 
If a knifemaker charges $500 for a knife and they MAKE $300 on that knife after expenses, bills and shop equipment, it would take 100 knives to earn $30,000 a year, pre-tax.

Do the math guys. Most tactical knifemakers aren't in the charity business unless they have another full-time job. $30K does not buy a lot of Guiness if you know what I mean!

Most prolific "Tactical" makers have to make knives in the hundreds in order to make a living.

If you are paying over 1K for a stainless and titanium tactical knife you are probably paying too much unless it is an Onion or a Bogi, IMO.
 
Hi Anthony,

I submit to you that you have yet to name a custom makers knives who are worse than a $50 Benchmade or Spyderco.

Who's knives have you abused and broken? Where they used in a manner that the "average user" would use them for? Or were undue tests performed on these, like he ever stupid Spin Whack Test. No one has ever yet to explain to me how that scenario would occur in the real world.

I don't expect you to name names....those who claim factory knives are better than customs never do.

I will have to take your word on the Chinook. I haven't used a factory knife in over 23 years. But for my own edification who is it stronger? Surely your not using a folder to pry with? I used my fixed blade for that. 8th grade shop teacher ringing in my ears...."Right tool for the right job".

I have to back Anthony on the custom makers and how many knives they make. Elishewitz and Crawford several years back were approaching 500 + knives per year. However, these to fine makers took the custom knife business to an art form...for makers that is.

They figured out in advance how many knives and of what type were to be made. Utilized water jet, laser cutting, what ever they could get for blades and frames. Here is where the really intelligent part came in. They would buy bulk both steel and titanium and have the parts cut and shipped to them. Now before you start comparing this to factory knives it isn't. In lieu of doing what I call "Monkey" work which is the band sawing of blades and/or frames. They outsourced this work, which left them more time to employ their expertise which was making knives. Brilliant business strategy!

The down side was market saturation after a few years. This hurt their knives after market appeal. It had nothing to do with the quality of the work, it had to do with too many knives available. There was no reason to "rush" to buy one since they always seemed to be available.


A lot of custom knife makers will make less than 50 knives a year. Again, Anthony is correct it is almost impossible to make a living making custom knives.

WWG
 
Hi Possum,

The Gilbreath folder you received was at the infancy of custom tactical folders, hence the $200 price tag. Randall was a much better fixed blade maker than a folder maker. There are some nicer ones out there, but the base model ones are just that.

For point of reference, factories were not making knives like that at the time.

WWG
 
I submit to you that you have yet to name a custom makers knives who are worse than a $50 Benchmade or Spyderco.
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Actually I am comparing the knives to $100+factory knives.
You should get out more Les, there are some really excellent factory knives out there.

hand-made custom does not always produce a better tool. Nicer, yes. Better? Not frequently. It depend what your goals are.

To pan factory knives in this day and age is fairly ignorant in my opinion.
The materials are identical and the engineering is often superior-remember, they are often designed by the same custom makers you are touting above!
 
i think i have read the spine whack explained something like this, if you are hacking into a branch or something and your blade becomes stuck and you yank it upward to dislodge it with such great force that the spine strikes something over head (another branch possibly) causing your lock to fail resulting in the lose of phalanges.

something like that anyways
 
Some prolific makers would be:

Ron Gaston(deceased), Pat Crawford, Bob Terzuola(probably), and R.J. Martin(probably). This is off the top of my head.

It is a fair expectation that a custom made knife be of AT LEAST production quality.

Here are some folder makers that have met with my production standards INCLUDING blade-to-handle ratio(Benchmade, Microtech, CRK Sebenza):

Busfield, Jack; Carson, "Kit"; Chard, Gordon; Crawford, Pat; Diskin, Matt; Elishewitz, Allen; Gedraitis, Chuck; Harris, Dewey; Hawk, G&G; Jernigan, Steve; Lum, Bob; Martin, R.J.; McBurnette, Harvey(deceased); Morris, C.H.(fantastic deals to be had on his work!); Mosier, David; Osborne, Warren; Pardue, Mel; Pease, W.D.; Sawby, Scott; Smith, John W.; Terzuola, Bob; Vallotton, Butch, Washburn, Art.

There are others like C. Gray Taylor, Ron Lake, Michael Walker, Tony Bose, Eugene Shadley, Terry Davis......but they are not for beginners, with limited funds, truth be told, neither are Busfield, McBurnette, Osborne, Pease, Sawby or John W. Smith's finer pieces, but can't exclude everyone!

Anthony, I'm pretty sure that Loveless has had a longer run of his "licensed" knives than anyone, with a higher number of factories(Schrade, Gerber, Beretta, Lone Wolf), and Bob Lum would run a close second, then Blackie Collins, and then MAYBE Ken Onion. His work is mostly with the Kai Corp.

If a new collector asks me, I always recommend that they go to a show, and take two runs around the room, expecting that they MAY get one knife at the show. The first run is to see what you like, take notes, the second run is to see WHO you like. This is equally important.

If shows are out of the question, for whatever reason, take the time to do a bunch of searches on dealer websites, and then call the makers on the telephone, or e-mail if you feel comfortable doing that. If it is a full-time maker, calling around 7:30 PM would might be the best time to reach them. Ask some questions, and see if you jibe with them. That is a good learning experience in and of itself.

If you can't take a knife making course somewhere, buy a kit and assemble that. Not the same, but it will still give you a taste of the knifemaker's vocation. It is hard work, but rewarding on many levels!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hi Joss,

Regarding the Obenauf, his knives have improved consistently year after year. This is part of the reason his knives routinely sell for $75 to $100 over retail. I even have other dealers who buy them from me at full retail.

With regards to the Sebenza, having been in production for over 15 years with numbers that have to be pushing 100,000 made (in different sizes and configurations. I would hope they would have them figured out by now. The Sebenza is a great knife, three screws a pivot pin, two pieces of titanium and a blade...viola. Id like to see one with a bolster and an overlay. I suspect that would add several hours and a couple hundred bucks to the knife.

Lastly, (Chris doesn't make the knife). Big secret in the late 90's not so big after the Sebenza won the 2000 Blade Show award for Best Manufactured Knife (voted on by the other factories).

Now if you want a really nice Sebenza style knife get a Lochsa from Scott Cook. Only about $150 more, but that one piece titanium frame is a bitch. And he actually makes the knife.

I suspect that once Mike Obenauf has been making knives for 15 years he will be able to give anyone on the tactical folder side of the house a run for their money.

WWG
 
Anthony, I'm pretty sure that Loveless has had a longer run of his "licensed" knives than anyone, with a higher number of factories, and Bob Lum would run a close second, then Blackie Collins, and then MAYBE Ken Onion. His work is mostly with the Kai Corp.
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You would be way wrong, compadre. Ken has had more models and has greater volume than anyone other custom maker currently or ever.
 
My point was that Ken Onion's name has been on "hundreds of thousands" of factory knives. Blackie is a close second. Ed Halligan, Gil Hibben, Fred Carter and Kit Carson picking up the rear. Blackie is not really a custom knifemaker, IMO and never "really" was. More of a "benchmade" maker.
 
think i have read the spine whack explained something like this, if you are hacking into a branch or something and your blade becomes stuck and you yank it upward to dislodge it with such great force that the spine strikes something over head (another branch possibly) causing your lock to fail resulting in the lose of phalanges.

something like that anyways
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How about this one-In a self-defense situation your blade hits a rib instead of flesh? The impact can cause a liner lock to close up if it is susceptible to a spine whack.

APL
(One who repeatedly stabs trees and plywood humanoid cutouts with tactical folders and full power thrusts while wearing a kevlar glove to test lock strength, FYI the Manix from Spyderco can easily take full power thrusts into a brick wall......)
 
Hi Anthony,

People have been telling me for years that the factory knives are really getting good and I should go look at some.

I tell them why would I? Im selling the custom knives today that the factories will be copying 2 years from now! :D Im not interested in "yesterdays" knives.

Anthony when you are selling the custom originals what makes you think I would think these are ok, they cheap copies. If I was ok with cheap copies I would be like other "custom" knife dealers and sell factory knives too!

The reason I have no interest in factory knives (and I know they have come along way) is I saw them fail time and time again while I served as an Infantry Officer with the 101st Airborne. Hell the reason I got into custom knives was because of a Gerber dagger. The handle came off in my hand. The violent treatment that caused this? I stuck the knife in a tree, then pulled it out.

I saw a Cold Steel Tanto break in half while cutting a piece of commo wire. The same one they were advertising that would stick in a quarter or go through a car door.

I saw about an inch and a half of the time of a Randall model 14 break off. True this was during Northern Warfare School and it was -30. Oddly enough my Brend had no problem with the cold. On a side note I sold the officer whose knife broke a Brend.

Case, Buck, Schrade, Uncle Henry, etc. Soldiers broke all of them.

The one factory knife I did like was the Al Mar SERE Folder. Still have the one I carried for a while.

I was very fortunate to have been in a position where I could really "Field Test" custom knives ( I always took multiples to the field with me).

For my money, best factory knife in the world....Swiss Army Knife. If I was going to sell any factory knives those would be the ones I would sell.

Also I think for the money CRKT offers a hell of a knife.

WWG
Tester of Custom Knives....All Around The World...Jungle, Mountains, Northern Climates, Desert, Woodlands and Marshes, oh and the Ocean(s) and Sea(s).
 
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