New damascus compositions

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lnhiv

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Nov 8, 2011
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I know there's Timascus, and damascus, and mokume...I was thinking this morning...why haven't we seen stainless/titanium or any other crazy combinations similar to this? I understand the inherit risks and problems with titanium itself, which is most likely the answer to my question...but why nothing else?

Cobalt/Titanium and Cobalt/Stainless are both ones that I'd be seriously interested in seeing the metallurgical results of. Generally speaking, if the composition materials can be alloyed together, they can be forge welded...so why no more innovation in this area?

Maybe I missed something in my searching, so if someone has heard something, please tell me, and even better yet, link if you have it available.



Larry
 
sounds like it would be worth the trouble to see how it works

i don't see why it wouldn't... but my knowledge base isn't too layering savy
 
that would be cool. I think part of the problem is that the welds are hard enough to get flawless even with the same material, so different metals throws the problems of the different coefficients of thermal expansion, and different oxides that may require different fluxes. its all pretty complicated. I've heard that timascus is exceptionally difficult to make. here is some wierd stuff [video]http://www.metalpenblanks.com/mokume_gane_standard.htm[/video]
 
There's a bit more to it than simply finding materials that can be welded together. The popular steel combinations for Damascus are steels that have broadly similar characteristics and which, once welded, behave in a way that is similar to an homogenous material whilst being worked into the finished product.

To add to the problem, the working temperature may be some way from room temperature, so it's necessary to have reasonably similar thermal expansion coefficients if the layers are to remain bonded through temperature cycles.

There are lots of combinations of materials that have been tried for Mokume. The ones that work well are those that have sufficiently similar working properties to allow them to be made into something without tearing themselves apart in the process. Really hard layers in conjunction with really soft layers don't seem to work well, for instance.

The pen-blank materials in the link look very nice, but you don't need paricularly high performance materials to make pens.

Once you start looking at heat-treatable materials, they've not just to survive relatively gentle heating and cooling, they've got to survive the quench.

It can probably be done, if someone takes the time to do it. The real question is not "can it be done?", but "will it provide enough advantage to be worth doing?".

Neither Cobalt nor Titanium seem to be particularly good blade materials on their own. It's difficult to see how a layered combination of the two would be a great deal better. Stainless steel has a thermal expansion coefficient about twice that of Titanium, with Cobalt about midway between them. Ferguson has Stainless Steel/Titanium down as an incompatible combination in his book "Mokume Gane", but doesn't elaborate on why. He doesn't mention Cobalt.

At the end of the day, the product probably needs to be useful as a knife. I get the feeling that most makers are quite focussed on making their products perform well and I doubt there are many makers on this forum who would be happy to sell something that looks really cool but is no use as a knife.
 
Timgunn: all valid points...I personally hadn't thought of the thermal expansion effects, especially during quench. Just kind of decided to toss it out there.

I'm going to have to go back through my materials resources and see if I can come up with something different, if for no other reason than just to say it might work haha. I've also been interested in seeing how superalloys would work as blade steels, though tbh most of the ones I've had experience with were absolute hell to heat treat...again, I'll have to go back through my materials resources and see if maybe there's something there that could make something interesting.

Also I completely agree on your comment about usefulness...knives are tools, and if it doesn't function, I don't own it, and I sure as hell won't make it :)
 
I get asked about using the M3 pen mokume as well as the PMC metals for knife work. Understanding what it is will help understand why it won't work well.

M3 is finely powdered metals that are mixed with a binder, They are then folded/swirled/mixed to make a mokume looking material, ,and fused. What holds this together is the binder and the way that it is fused.

PMC is made similarly, but the powders are mixed with a clay/ceramic that is fired to make the metal look.

Neither is as strong as solid metal, or would work for anything more than a decorative handle part.
 
I saw a straight razor with M3 "cobaltanium" scales, and it looked nice. Obviously it is no good for blade material, but as a bolster or fitting it could look nice. although this is one of those things that I would really want to see in person first.
 
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For Christmas last year I goy a lovely piece of mokume. It's still sitting in my supply stash because I can't find an appropriate use for it. If I made folders I'd use it for the bolsters. If I made full tang knives I might do the same. But I don't, so I'm at a loss how to use it.

I'm sure I'll figure something out... but these exotic combinations are not really useful for much... though they are pretty.
 
lnhiv said:
I've also been interested in seeing how superalloys would work as blade steels, though tbh most of the ones I've had experience with were absolute hell to heat treat...again, I'll have to go back through my materials resources and see if maybe there's something there that could make something interesting.
Click to expand...

Have you read about GNiCr40Al4? That's an age hardening Ni-Cr superalloy that's relatively easy to HT and serves well as a knife blade. Cool stuff.
 
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