New found respect for cotton

[JB in SC]

Cotton fabric can be quite weather resistant. Fine multi-ply yarns made with long staple length combed cotton in combination with high thread counts make for a very tough material. They are not easy to spin or weave thus the high prices. Extra long staple cotton is very expensive.

 

[Raymond1000]

Ventile was originally developed during WWII to keep RAF flyers alive when they ditched in the frigid North Atlantic. It worked, too. Extended pilot survival from two minutes to 20 minutes, which produced an 80% survival rate among anti-submarine pilots. It’s still used by firefighters and the military, including RAF and NATO flight crews.

My Ventile coat sort of stiffens up in the rain. It’s hard to describe. Once that happens the water slides off of it. It’s breathable, and it’s kept me dry in some wet conditions. Ventile is great stuff.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Jackets made of Ventile are very different to jackets made of normal cotton....many Arctic explorers still swear by Ventile outer wear !!!

Single layer Ventile is wind proof and water resistant, double layer Ventile is waterproof and far more breathable than Goretex !!!

Great topic! Surely, clothing is a very important topic in the realm of wilderness survival.

No reason cotton can't be woven tight enough to keep out wind. Same is true of boiled wool.

Ventile is extremely closely woven. It resists rain. It is very different from most cotton material in many respects. It's darned expensive and can claim reasons to justify that expense.

And I have given up on "waterproof/breathable" for severe cold in favor of a cotton/polyester blend ("Mountain Cloth") and (about to be tested) a water-repellent jacket made of Schoeller Dryskin Extreme.

But Ventile is not "waterproof" as that term is legally defined in the U.S. (capable of supporting a 1000mm column of water indefinitely) and many other countries.

Nor does the manufacturer of Ventile claim it is "waterproof," an objective, measureable standard. http://www.ventile.co.uk/about.html Claims of "great," "special," "protects," "reputation," etc. are not capable of precise measurement.

The Royal Geographic Society notes in its Expedition Advisory that, "If rain is not a problem," Ventile is still suitable for polar expeditions, although largely superceeded by man-made materials. http://www.rgs.org/NR/rdonlyres/6F643E3F-3167-466F-ABED-95F6915FDE2C/0/PolarManual.pdf.

The British Antartic Survey uses Ventile for the "coldest, driest conditions."

There is no question that once it is wet, Ventile takes longer to dry out than nylon or polyester. These man-made materials also have much higher breaking strength and abrasion-resistance, fiber size for fiber size.

So cotton has it's place, as does wool and man-made fibers.

Lots of changes in farbics in the last couple of years. "Soft shells" (What we seasoned citizens called "wind-breakers."), merely "water-repellent," are outselling waterproof "hard shells" of Gore-Tex and its competitors, even as Gore does its very best to keep a far superior fabric ("eVent") out of the U.S. market.

 

[Sound Idea]

And the part where they ate the dogs always made me frown. Could have made dog sleds or slept with the dogs for warmth.

They did both of those things. Don't forget the Endurance expedition didn't go as planned at all, it was a genuine survival experience because their ship was destroyed and they were just trying to get out alive. Eventually food supplies got so low that they had to shoot the dogs and eat them.

 

[batosai117]

They did both of those things. Don't forget the Endurance expedition didn't go as planned at all, it was a genuine survival experience because their ship was destroyed and they were just trying to get out alive. Eventually food supplies got so low that they had to shoot the dogs and eat them.

It still made me a little upset. I wouldn't want to kill my dogs just so I could eat. Then again, none of the men died even after that long ordeal in the harsh cold, so I guess they turned out alright. I wonder what seal tastes like....? It's still pretty amazing how the small command crew made it all the way to that little island and actually didn't miss it.

 

[akennedy73]

Lots of changes in farbics in the last couple of years. "Soft shells" (What we seasoned citizens called "wind-breakers."), merely "water-repellent," are outselling waterproof "hard shells" of Gore-Tex and its competitors, even as Gore does its very best to keep a far superior fabric ("eVent") out of the U.S. market.

Do you have any experience with eVent? I've read about it and I'm wondering if it's the waterproof and truly breathable fabric that everyone has always dreamed of :thumbup:

Not many big name manufacturers have picked it up yet - it's an expensive proposition but I might consider investing in an eVent shell if it truly outperforms gore-tex and other breathable laminate clones. I'm guessing it must have some drawbacks - nothing's perfect.

 

[jackknife]

It's still pretty amazing how the small command crew made it all the way to that little island and actually didn't miss it.

Frank Worsley was a master mariner, which is why he was picked as master of the Endurance. In his own telling of the tale Shackelton says that Worsley was the finest sailor and navigator he had ever seen. Even in the stormy seas he kept a detailed recconing of just where they were, and hit South Georgia island exactly. It was said later by men in the Royal Navy who accually knew Frank Worsley, that the only other man who could have piloted a small boat on that voyage was William Bligh.

 

[Lawlor69]

When I was a kid, I spent a lot of time in the hilly woods and on the water of lakes in southern Quebec (north of Vermont), where I grew up. From late August until late May it gets cold; from mid-October until mid-April it was often below freezing 24 hours a day, for weeks at a stretch. I would wear mostly cotton clothing--almost none of it specialized outdoor gear--and a bit of wool, mostly wool sweaters.

I spent A LOT of time in those clothes getting wet and cold, worrying about getting wet and cold--and sometimes just plain old wet, and sometimes just plain-old cold.

I recall one time when I believe I had a mild to medium case of hypothermia (not fun).

I would often, while hiking even in winter, get so hot I would strip down to my T-shirt. It would soak through, so I learned to bring a dry one to switch into once I stopped hiking, immediately.

I once fell through a frozen stream, up to my armpits, on a night when it was probably about 20 below. I was lucky in that I was only about 20 minutes walk from home. My pants and jacket were pretty much frozen solid within a few minutes of going in the water.

Once I discovered and could afford nylon and polyester base layers and outerwear, I migrated to them. While I still wear some cotton clothing, especially as just general everyday wear, pretty much all my outdoor fitness and wilderness clothing is technical fabrics. It doesn't absorb as much moisture, be it environmental or self-produced, and dries much faster once it is wet--especially if you have to use body heat to dry it.

In general, you don't even need super high-end clothing, or big name fabrics.

While I respect the views and values of the people who have faith in cotton, in my experience it just isn't that great once wet.

 

[North61]

Well..I am a pretty well versed winter camper from the NWT and Nunavut.
I have spent a lot of tent time at -40 or worse in dry cold conditions.

High Quality Cotton is perfectly acceptable perhaps even superior as a WIND layer in the tree belt. It's better around open flame than synthetics and in a light wind shell it's propensity to soak up moisture isn't a fatal defect if it can be dried daily in a fire heated tent.

In use as an insulation layer it can only be rated as very poor. As a kid Stanfield thermal cotton underwear was all the rage and it nearly killed me several times. Wool or Synthetics is all that's acceptable.

North of the tree line... synthetic windshells again get the nod over cotton as spark melting from the fire is no longer an issue. I have two gore activent poly-nylon anoraks that stop the wind better and weigh about 1/3 of a an equivalent cotton garment. The ice forms on the inside of them and can be shaken off rather than soaking in and needing to be thawed out. The Canovers like there cotton anoraks because they dry their gear with the wood stove in a hot tent. One or two experiences of putting on a stiffened ice encrusted cotton wind garment in a -30 tent will soon get you thinking of a better solution.

If you live in the tree belt and don't use a heated tent synthetic wind shells are better as well.

 

[akennedy73]

Well..I am a pretty well versed winter camper from the NWT and Nunavut.
I have spent a lot of tent time at -40 or worse in dry cold conditions.

High Quality Cotton is perfectly acceptable perhaps even superior as a WIND layer in the tree belt. It's better around open flame than synthetics and in a light wind shell it's propensity to soak up moisture isn't a fatal defect if it can be dried daily in a fire heated tent.

In use as an insulation layer it can only be rated as very poor. As a kid Stanfield thermal cotton underwear was all the rage and it nearly killed me several times. Wool or Synthetics is all that's acceptable.

North of the tree line... synthetic windshells again get the nod over cotton as spark melting from the fire is no longer an issue. I have two gore activent poly-nylon anoraks that stop the wind better and weigh about 1/3 of a an equivalent cotton garment. The ice forms on the inside of them and can be shaken off rather than soaking in and needing to be thawed out. The Canovers like there cotton anoraks because they dry their gear with the wood stove in a hot tent. One or two experiences of putting on a stiffened ice encrusted cotton wind garment in a -30 tent will soon get you thinking of a better solution.

If you live in the tree belt and don't use a heated tent synthetic wind shells are better as well.

thanks for that input North61 - makes a lot of sense and it's much appreciated :thumbup:

 

[Thomas Linton]

Do you have any experience with eVent? I've read about it and I'm wondering if it's the waterproof and truly breathable fabric that everyone has always dreamed of :thumbup:

Not many big name manufacturers have picked it up yet - it's an expensive proposition but I might consider investing in an eVent shell if it truly outperforms gore-tex and other breathable laminate clones. I'm guessing it must have some drawbacks - nothing's perfect.

First, it ain't easy to get an eVent garment. When Lowe began using it for 2004 models (IIRC), Gore approached them with a monster discount for Gore products. As a result, Lowe made few and stopped use of eVent with that model year. So you have to chase them in the secondary market OR look at more exotic brands like North 66 (or is it North 66? ) OR very expensive botique brands. In short, Gore is winning.

As for the performance of eVent, I just got a Lowe eVent off ebay and can't honestly comment -- yet.

All reviews I found were very positive.

The third-party testing for the military placed eVent as the clear winner for waterproof fabrics on the market. http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/breathability.pdf

The only products shown on the tables of test results that are more breathable than eVent are water repellant (Schoeller) or not useable for garments (expanded PTFE) since defeated by oils in sweat, as Gore discovered decades ago. (Gore went to microporous polyurethane -- laminated on PTFE to link to the Gore patent. They could have laminated it to other materials, but the PTFE was the basis of their claim of uniqueness. Gore does have VERY high standards for construction of the garments that carry the Gore-Tex label.)

Note that several fabrics get close to eVent when the humidity gets high on both sides of the fabric -- that is when its wetter inside and out.

And I'm the dunce that got sold on a sale jacket made with Conduit from Mountain Hardware when I hadn't done the research.

 

[North61]

thanks for that input North61 - makes a lot of sense and it's much appreciated :thumbup:

No problem. Get a copy of that Canover book (Winter Wilderness Companion) for yourself it is a great one and details traditional hot tent winter camping wonderfully well. Did quite a bit of this when our kids were small and snowshoes or snowmobiles were the way to go. Made two toboggans and a bunch of wood stoves and away we went. Lots of fun.

Now that our kids are older we ski and have relearned the value of light weight camping and speed. Can go twice as far (or more) on skis as we can on snowshoes especially if we keep our load light ( and I am a pretty crappy skier). It's way more fun on the trail but a bit less luxurious in camp. Of course I don't need to cut wood for the stove so it evens out.

The wood stove is left at home but I do insist on the three pound luxury and reliability of an Optimus 111 B gasoline stove. Doesn't make too much of a load on the pulk.

For lighter weight winter camping my favourite three books are in order of preference:

1) Ski Camping by Ron Watters..... a classic with great pictures but outdated equipment

2) Winter Camping by Gorman.... a modern classic

3) Snow Camping by Jo Anne Creore.

Even if you don't go out much these books are great reads. Also worth having... Moving On by Harry Roberts and Winter Wise by Monty Alford.