New freehander here. Need advice

[Jason B.]

Jason B, thanks for the great info about coarse edges! I'm already sharpening this way, but it's always good to get confirmation that I'm on the right track.

I have some big wood-chopping knives with SR101, 5160, and 1095 steel. I've always heard that smooth edges are best for chopping hard, dead wood. But, to keep my pack weight down, I also use these knives for more delicate chores, where coarse edges are better, when I'm camping and/or hunting.

Do you think these steels will be ok to chop with at a low grit, say 200-400, or should I go higher to compromise between a coarse and smooth edge?

Thank you...

As I kinda mentioned in my last post I do go finer on lower alloy steels and yes a more polished edge on choppers is preferred. This is one of the few cases a polished edge will outperform a coarse edge. That said, a 400 grit edge given a healthy stropping will be "polished" enough to chop wood in your situation.

 

[jpm2]

No, but i do go a little finer on lower alloy steels. Personal preference more than anything.

I understand a coarse edge will draw cut much longer, but singling out high alloy steels and high grits is what I questioned. Thanks for clarifying.

If you haven't already done it, take maxamet to .5 or .25 micron diamond, just for fun to see how long it holds the edge compared to any other steel sharpened the same.

 

[MtnHawk1]

As I kinda mentioned in my last post I do go finer on lower alloy steels and yes a more polished edge on choppers is preferred. This is one of the few cases a polished edge will outperform a coarse edge. That said, a 400 grit edge given a healthy stropping will be "polished" enough to chop wood in your situation.

Thank you very much!

Trying to find the best compromise between coarse and smooth has been a bit of a dilemma for me for awhile.

 

[DeadboxHero]

CATRA is draw cut bias anything past 400 grit and any kind of Stropping with compound will reduce the endurance on CATRA.

That's not to say that Polish is no bueno. Some folks like more push cut bias.

I was once all about polishing an edge to a minimum of 1 micron, especially on super steels. Then I went off and did a bunch of CATRA testing and I was slapped in the face with reality, polished edges are pretty and can perform decent in some tasks but just can't compare to a coarse edge. The overall edge retention, consistency of the edge performance, predictability of the cut and ease of maintenance to bring the edge back all favor the coarse edge. A coarse edge with a touch of polish will outperform any polished edge, hence the reason nearly all factory edges are coarse machine edges with a Deburr/polish to complete the edge. It's not opinion it's simply fact, coarse edges win the edge retention game.

Truthfully, if it was not for the excessive metal removal I would machine sharpen all knives and use stone sharpening only for blades that require it. Machine edges done right can be amazing and with some knives far better than what hand sharpening could ever do. But... it removes a lot of metal so it can drastically reduce the life of a knife if done often.

 

[Jason B.]

I understand a coarse edge will draw cut much longer, but singling out high alloy steels and high grits is what I questioned. Thanks for clarifying.

If you haven't already done it, take maxamet to .5 or .25 micron diamond, just for fun to see how long it holds the edge compared to any other steel sharpened the same.

It was polishing super steels that got everyones attention more than a decade ago, its kinda what made me popular, I could/can polish the hell out of an edge and do it better by hand than most do with systems. When it comes to sharpening and testing I've done it and then some so I really don't need to do it again, I know the outcome. My comments in this thread about edge retention are not opinion but fact backed by personal and professional testing not to mention many other professional before me that came to this same conclusion.

CATRA is draw cut bias anything past 400 grit and any kind of Stropping with compound will reduce the endurance on CATRA.

That's not to say that Polish is no bueno. Some folks like more push cut bias.

The CATRA machine measures edge retention and to get the most edge retention you use the coarsest edge prep possible. The coarse edge "teeth" equate to more surface area over the length of the edge which in turn means it takes longer to wear away all the cutting potential of the edge. The abrasive strips used in this test offer very consistent wear on the blade which offer a consistent test in which to measure edge retention. It may have some draw cut bias but knives tend to be draw cut tools. Truthfully, I can really only think of Shaving hair, Chopping wood or making wood shavings and cutting veggies where push cutting really comes into play and in all cases the tools used tend to have polished edges.

 

[DeadboxHero]

It was polishing super steels that got everyones attention more than a decade ago, its kinda what made me popular, I could/can polish the hell out of an edge and do it better by hand than most do with systems. When it comes to sharpening and testing I've done it and then some so I really don't need to do it again, I know the outcome. My comments in this thread about edge retention are not opinion but fact backed by personal and professional testing not to mention many other professional before me that came to this same conclusion.



The CATRA machine measures edge retention and to get the most edge retention you use the coarsest edge prep possible. The coarse edge "teeth" equate to more surface area over the length of the edge which in turn means it takes longer to wear away all the cutting potential of the edge. The abrasive strips used in this test offer very consistent wear on the blade which offer a consistent test in which to measure edge retention. It may have some draw cut bias but knives tend to be draw cut tools. Truthfully, I can really only think of Shaving hair, Chopping wood or making wood shavings and cutting veggies where push cutting really comes into play and in all cases the tools used tend to have polished edges.

My personal opinion, I found 800-1500grit was the best compromise in real world for my personal use. For me it had the best blend of attributes.

I found the 140grit Atoma did the best for CATRA. It also did the best with rope cutting with Phil Wilson.

I didn't like that edge for my personal use though, it could cut great with a light touch and drawing like a saw, but if I wanted to push more during the cut it would take more force. I don't like high polish though either, goes smooth fast, less force to push but I'm never really pushing straight through materials with my folders, I always add a slight draw.

So the 800-1500 made me the happiest and I like to bump to 1um Stropping on diamond sprayed leather if I want more refining.

 

[Jason B.]

My personal opinion, I found 800-1500grit was the best compromise in real world for my personal use. For me it had the best blend of attributes.

I found the 140grit Atoma did the best for CATRA. It also did the best with rope cutting with Phil Wilson.

I didn't like that edge for my personal use though, it could cut great with a light touch and drawing like a saw, but if I wanted to push more during the cut it would take more force. I don't like high polish though either, goes smooth fast, less force to push but I'm never really pushing straight through materials with my folders, I always add a slight draw.

So the 800-1500 made me the happiest and I like to bump to 1um Stropping on diamond sprayed leather if I want more refining.

Same here, I like the 800-2000 grit range. I consider it to have good balance.

We ran one blade that was sharpened on a 120 grit belt to 9 dps and it cut 4x as much media as any other edge prep but like the Atoma edge, its just not to my liking.

 

[DeadboxHero]

It's unfortunate this information is lost on most people.
It was an interesting journey though eh? Discovering that all the fancy high carbide steels like S30v-S90v at 60rc are toothy bias for the most part, seemed overpolished past 400 grit

I have discovered with my work that moving past 60rc closer to 64-65rc does improve the front end edge holding some, I was getting the edges I liked more at 800grit.

Same here, I like the 800-2000 grit range. I consider it to have good balance.

We ran one blade that was sharpened on a 120 grit belt to 9 dps and it cut 4x as much media as any other edge prep but like the Atoma edge, its just not to my liking.

 

[Jason B.]

It's unfortunate this information is lost on most people.
It was an interesting journey though eh? Discovering that all the fancy high carbide steels like S30v-S90v at 60rc are toothy bias for the most part, seemed overpolished past 400 grit

I have discovered with my work that moving past 60rc closer to 64-65rc does improve the front end edge holding some, I was getting the edges I liked more at 800grit.

I think it's not so much lost as it is blocked out by the regurgitated misinformation. It's almost like urban legend, it's said so much everyone takes it as the truth. For me, this was the biggest issue to overcome when I first started searching the inter webs for sharpening info. It's more like a puzzle that you have to put together by taking little bits of everyones wisdom.

I use to love polishing edges and was probably more lustful for the polish than mindful of the actual performance but it was fun. I remember being a bit heart broken when I finally accepted the truth... the ugly edges performed better.

 

[jpm2]

It was polishing super steels that got everyones attention more than a decade ago, its kinda what made me popular, I could/can polish the hell out of an edge and do it better by hand than most do with systems. When it comes to sharpening and testing I've done it and then some so I really don't need to do it again, I know the outcome. My comments in this thread about edge retention are not opinion but fact backed by personal and professional testing not to mention many other professional before me that came to this same conclusion.



The CATRA machine measures edge retention and to get the most edge retention you use the coarsest edge prep possible. The coarse edge "teeth" equate to more surface area over the length of the edge which in turn means it takes longer to wear away all the cutting potential of the edge. The abrasive strips used in this test offer very consistent wear on the blade which offer a consistent test in which to measure edge retention. It may have some draw cut bias but knives tend to be draw cut tools. Truthfully, I can really only think of Shaving hair, Chopping wood or making wood shavings and cutting veggies where push cutting really comes into play and in all cases the tools used tend to have polished edges.

I don't know why you keep bringing up coarse vs polished edge retention to me, it has nothing to do with what I was talking about...

 

[Jason B.]

I don't know why you keep bringing up coarse vs polished edge retention to me, it has nothing to do with what I was talking about...

Not real sure what your question is?

 

[Mr.Wizard]

My personal opinion, I found 800-1500grit was the best compromise in real world for my personal use. For me it had the best blend of attributes.

What are your favorite finishing stones et al at that level?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Truthfully, I can really only think of Shaving hair, Chopping wood or making wood shavings and cutting veggies where push cutting really comes into play and in all cases the tools used tend to have polished edges.

Exact same conclusion here.

On a personal level I'm not really sure how to rate my preferred edge finish by grit anymore. Is probably around 800 but a one to one comparison is a little tricky. I like a very coarse edge, 120 grit or so, set at around 26° with a microbevel done on an 8k, Ef, or EEf for just enough passes to narrow the across width of the apex.
For more of a chopper I'll do extra passes, for a more coarse finish I'll only do a few.

All other things being equal this has greatly improved edge retention on most of my ordinary users and kitchen knives. For dedicated choppers in the kitchen or woodworking I take the initial edge set up to 4k with the 8 or 10k micro. Camping choppers get a bright finish - stone up to 6-800 grit or so and strop the crap out of em on a hard surface.

 

[DeadboxHero]

What are your favorite finishing stones et al at that level?

For Rex 121 at 70rc I like
BBB Vitrified CBN 1000 grit.

For s125v at 63rc I like
Naniwa Resin diamond 800 grit

For BD1N at 63rc I like
Naniwa Chosera 1k

For 52100 at +63rc I like
King Hyper 1k