New fuel in Salt water that burns

[pcnorton]

Salt water is a solution of NACL and H2O. Burning is the process of oxiizing something. Burn Hydrogen and you get H2O. SO is this guy adding Oxygen to what? The H20 molecule? or NACL molecule? SOme have stated he is burning the NA...well how did he seperate the molecule?

And where does the Chlorine go.

Paul

 

[Steve Hayden]

Salt water is a solution of NACL and H2O. Burning is the process of oxiizing something. Burn Hydrogen and you get H2O. SO is this guy adding Oxygen to what? The H20 molecule? or NACL molecule? SOme have stated he is burning the NA...well how did he seperate the molecule?

And where does the Chlorine go.

Paul

Aqueous solution of Hydrochloric Acid + NaO + excess Cl (gas).

The trouble is that it would be endothermic-consuming more energy than it released. If you drove it with solar, you would just have an inefficient solar cell.

 

[mycroftt]

A cure for cancer and a perpetual motion machine all in one. What - it doesn't solve world hunger and sustain cold fusion? I'm not investing the $25 million that Nigerian bank official is sending me any day now.

 

[zman308]

This is pure BS. The guy is using electrolysis to make hydrogen which burns. This takes more energy to cause the decomposition reaction of water than is given off by the combustion of hydrogen. Decomposing NaCl even takes more energy than decomposing water, the burning of sodium is usually very inefficient. I smell a "snake oil" scam. The post on the laws of thermodymanics is the LAW, no exceptions. This isn't metaphysics.

 

[alejandrino]

Well, I don't know ! The laws of thermodynamics have stood up so far but there could be higher laws not yet opened by man that could upend the old laws !! Years ago we had computers the size of a room and now we can fit it in a cigarette case! Maybe he is on to something and just hope it is not squashed by....!

 

[Bronco]

Well, I don't know ! The laws of thermodynamics have stood up so far but there could be higher laws not yet opened by man that could upend the old laws !!

Yes, and if/when that day comes, and the heretofore immutable laws of thermodynamics are somehow rendered obsolete, I guarantee you that you won't first learn of it here on the pages of Bladeforums.

 

[shaldag]

Well, hell, if the car is gonna run on salt water, just stock up on beer. Get the timing right, and you'll have plenty of fuel.

Oh, you want it to burn? OK, just go have unprotected sex in a N'Awlins cathouse. Wait a few days, and believe me, that saltwater will burn.

 

[SteelIsReal]

That would be because you're not familiar with the first three laws of thermodynamics. There are different ways of phrasing them; one way is:

1. You can't win.
2. You can't break even.
3. You can't get out of the game.

The reality is that Science - as a body of knowledge - has no actual laws, only working theories. "Science" as such, is only a series of ongoing experiments to try to figure out how things operate in the universe, on a micro through to stellar scale.

Any so-called "law" is merely the most likely working theory so far. Certain theories can be the subject of impassioned and at times nasty argument between differing schools of thought.

 

[Bronco]

The reality is that Science - as a body of knowledge - has no actual laws, only working theories. "Science" as such, is only a series of ongoing experiments to try to figure out how things operate in the universe, on a micro through to stellar scale.

Any so-called "law" is merely the most likely working theory so far. Certain theories can be the subject of impassioned and at times nasty argument between differing schools of thought.

Quite true. And yet, as I just mentioned above, if and/or when someone should find a way around one of the laws of thermodynamics, it won't be a secret hidden in some obscure corner of cyberspace.

 

[Alarion]

Well, things go this way: by combining hydrogen and oxygen, you get a reaction that releases heat, and produces water.
This with an efficiency < 1, as the laws of termodynamics clearly state.
If you get water, and want to separate it into oxygen and hydrogen again, to burn them, you must pump energy into the system. Again, the efficiency of the process is necessarily < 1, independently from the method used.
The result is that, to produce 1 kW of energy by "burning" sea water, you need MORE than 1 kW of energy to start with.
Hardly worth it.
Hydrogen is not available free in nature. It must first be produced. It's, as they say, an "energy carrier" (like batteries) rather than an energy source (like oil, or coal).
The only interesting thing in the whole process is electrolisis by radio wave instead than direct current applied to water.
That's about it.
But getting free energy from the sea? :jerkit:
Forget it.
If it was as the guy says, he'd invented a method of getting energy out of nowhere, and the perpetual motion, as you could burn sea water, obtaining again water and the energy to burn it again. Which is obviously impossible.
Either the guy is a cunning businessman who has devided a way to get financing for his researches out of the ecologist hysteria of these latest years, or one has to wonder how he spent the money which supposedly had to pay for his education... Surely not sea water. More probably high quality alcohol..:foot:

 

[Alarion]

The reality is that Science - as a body of knowledge - has no actual laws, only working theories. "Science" as such, is only a series of ongoing experiments to try to figure out how things operate in the universe, on a micro through to stellar scale.

Any so-called "law" is merely the most likely working theory so far. Certain theories can be the subject of impassioned and at times nasty argument between differing schools of thought.

The world runs on laws, not fantasies. Some laws can be refined, but some state the fundamentals of the working of the universe. One of these states that you can't produce anything out of nothing.
You can convert matter into energy (easy) or energy into matter (difficult) but in any case the enthropy of the system rises.
Pseudoscience enthusiasts have to cope with this.
Or, they can continue to nurse their delusions. Usually it doesn't impair too seriously their lives. It just impairs the progress of humanity, like four guys who have to rise a heavy box, and one of the three continues trying to lift it with the force of his mind...

 

[zenheretic]

If only we still had Cliff to help us understand all the laws of Physics and what they really mean, which of course isn't what we think they mean. Now we will never know, nor be able to burn salt water. Sigh.

 

[Cougar Allen]

 

[65535]

It's been said before, but the amount of energy it requires to instantaneously break the ionic bond in water separating H2 from O2 is huge, the recombining process produces the same amount of energy.

It is less than 100% efficient to produce radio waves at the required magnitude and frequency. Capturing the energy would not yield 100% efficiency. Heat is the output energy, electricity is the input, which is derived from most likely heat be it nuclear reactor or a Hydro Carbon flame. The mean output is basically lots of heat energy and nothing else, most of this heat energy is making the electricity to generate the radio waves in the first place, a very small amount of energy is produced by his radio wave Hydrogen flame.


For kicks I would notice that his RFG machine was rated up to about 1800 watts probably running at 1400 watts is only producing probably 200 watts of output energy from the Hydrogen flame. So 1200 watts is sent off into the universe as useless RF's

 

[severtecher]

I am familiar with this topic as a University colleague and I came up with a basic H2O solution back in the '70's which would power a vehicle. While primarily water is had trace elements of "ninja steel", of which all of you here know it's powers. And indeed some black suited guys from GM did assassinate me. I am feeling much better though.

 

[OrangeJoe]

Ok, what about this?

Since there are more than a few firefighters in BF, I'll ask.

Isn't there a point in a fire where the high temperature is supposed to split H20 into it's componentes, therefore firefighters have to switch to a different method to put out fire?
That is: Is there not a point where once you start the reaction by -H2O breakdown- where you only need to keep adding fuel (water) to the fire to keep it going? Of course the initial energy tradeoff is negative but then the process would be self sustaining...

Right?

 

[OrangeJoe]

Cougar, I see they got to you too.

It's only a simulacrum. There is no spoon.

 

[Steve Hayden]

It's been said before, but the amount of energy it requires to instantaneously break the ionic bond in water separating H2 from O2 is huge, the recombining process produces the same amount of energy.

It is less than 100% efficient to produce radio waves at the required magnitude and frequency. Capturing the energy would not yield 100% efficiency. Heat is the output energy, electricity is the input, which is derived from most likely heat be it nuclear reactor or a Hydro Carbon flame. The mean output is basically lots of heat energy and nothing else, most of this heat energy is making the electricity to generate the radio waves in the first place, a very small amount of energy is produced by his radio wave Hydrogen flame.


For kicks I would notice that his RFG machine was rated up to about 1800 watts probably running at 1400 watts is only producing probably 200 watts of output energy from the Hydrogen flame. So 1200 watts is sent off into the universe as useless RF's

Note that the bond between O2 and H is a very strong one because it is covalent, not ionic.

 

[Alarion]

Ok, what about this?

Since there are more than a few firefighters in BF, I'll ask.

Isn't there a point in a fire where the high temperature is supposed to split H20 into it's componentes, therefore firefighters have to switch to a different method to put out fire?
That is: Is there not a point where once you start the reaction by -H2O breakdown- where you only need to keep adding fuel (water) to the fire to keep it going? Of course the initial energy tradeoff is negative but then the process would be self sustaining...

Right?

Nope.
There has to be a damn high temp to start with and OTHER fuels to sustain it.
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Since the energy required to DIVIDE H and O is HIGHER than the energy they release when reuniting, due to dispersions and other factors, without OTHER fuel that gives additional energy a reaction of division and reunion can't sustain itself.
Otherwise, all you'd have to do would be ignite some H and O, obtain H2O, which would break in H and O due to the heat produced, and then reunite again and so on forever: perpetual motion, energy out of nothing.
Even if it WAS possibile (which it isn't but we are reasoning "per absurd" just to underline how absurd this is), you wouldn't be able to exploit any of this energy, because if you did, you'd rob the system of the energy necessary to sustain the reaction that would die instantly.

 

[Guyon]

I can't believe you guys are bound by these "thermodynamic laws." Here in Ten-Uh-Sea, we don't abide by any such laws. We just shoot anybody that crosses our kin.