New Guy possibly stupid question

S

Shore08

Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
634
Hello all, I have a 2 quick questions for you.

I am in the process of making my first knife. It is going to be a gift for my father-in-law. He is one of those guys that can do or make anything, which is a tough male role model to live up to (hey, my wife is used to superhuman feats, big shoes for me to fill :D ).

He gave me his old circular saw, and the blade is past it's useful life for that purpose. I decided to try and make a knife blade out of it.

I have the blade cut out, a bit of an edge on it (still working on getting it really really sharp) and have the handle materials selected (red oak).

Anyhow, these are my two questions:

1. The saw blade is a carbide blade, will I need to try and temper it?

2. The knife itself is small, and the handle will probably be only about 3-4 inches. Do I need to pin the handles or will epoxy do the job? I am just curious about that, I didn't know if most people today do the pins for aesthetics or if they still work to hold the handle in place.

Thanks for putting up with some silly new guy questions!
 
As for handles, pins of some sort are always a good idea in my opinion. Epoxy has tremendous holding strength, but it's the impacts and shearing which can be it's downfall. A bad example maybe, but think of a magnet. It's hard to pull off directly, but it can be more easily sheared sideways. Also, you're handle material may fail before the epoxy does, but pins just make it stronger.

As for the saw blade, that's a tough one, and I'll leave it to someone else. It's always a good idea to work with known materials, and there are many saw blades out there not suited to a knife's needs. Some are, on the other hand. Are you sure the blade isn't just carbide tipped?

--nathan
 
Actually, your magnet example is pretty darn good. It makes sense, and now I suppose I'm off to go find some pin material :D Thanks for that!

As for whether or not it is carbide tipped, I can't say for sure. It was a pretty old blade and discolored from use. Naturally I also managed to cut off the part that said what it was made of... let me dig up the picture I took and see if I can make anything from that...

CharlesKnifeXMAS2008001.jpg


I zoomed in on the original but was unable to read the writing (other than the word Plywood). I just remember seeing the word carbide, but not the context in which it was used.

I know it sounds bad, but I'm not terribly worried if it isn't the best cutting knife in the world. For this project, it is more the thought that counts. I want it to look good and for him to know it was handmade. That will mean more to him (the fact that it came from a saw he and I have used together) than it being the best knife ever (I hope!). What I was really concerned with was making sure I did everything I needed to do.

Let's assume it is general (generic?) tool steel, is that generally tempered well enough or should I prepare myself to try and heat treat it myself? I know that is an extremely broad generalization and I apologize in advance for asking you to make an assumption, but I really do appreciate the input.

On an aside, I have begun tracking down some local fabricators to see if I can find a good local supply of more suitable steel for future projects. You guys are a real inspiration!
 
OOOH! Excellent idea. Hmmmm... I know the wife went all plastic a while ago, I'll have to see what I can find. I had planned on snagging a brass welders rod at home depot, but I like that idea better...

Thanks!

:D
 
I'm all for making knives out of recycled material but after looking at the picture of the saw blade you posted I would head in a different direction for steel. That particular saw blade was designed to toss after it would no longer cut wood. You'd have better luck using one that doesn't have carbide teeth.
 
Thanks for the input Raymond, I appreciate your opinion. I'm going to go ahead with it though, like I said it is more the thought than the function on this one. I think I'm going to not worry with the heat treat on it, just get it done. Thanks!
 
If you came here to get help to make your FIL a nice gift, then listen to Raymond Richard, there is no better advice. Otherwise, I'm not sure what to think of your thread.
 
Shore08 said:
Thanks for the input Raymond, I appreciate your opinion. I'm going to go ahead with it though, like I said it is more the thought than the function on this one. I think I'm going to not worry with the heat treat on it, just get it done. Thanks!
Click to expand...

You've got me baffled as to why you asked for help and then choose to ignore the info you received from a very well informed source.

Ray is right, any saw blade with carbide tips on it will be absolutely useless soft steel.

If this is just practice that you will throw away, fine. But if you plan on spending huge time and effort finishing out something, why not give yourself the chance of ending up with something useful?

Especially on creating a gift that you hope will be cherished and shown to many others...The thought means more than the function?
WTF?
I've recieved many poor gifts from well meaning people that just didn't know anything about tools or my preferences...where "it was the thought that counted" (honestly, usually women) I have to say, i cherish the gifts i have received where the giver took the effort to really figure out what i wanted.

The gifts i have given are always better that i would want for myself...

HARSH???? just my opinion
 
I'd say go ahead with the project, but keep the knife for yourself as a learning project. The the next one, you can buy a piece of 1084 or simlar known steel and make an awesome gift for your father in law.

Giving this knife away is kind of like buying someone a 50" television screen that doesn't and can't work. It looks good on the wall, but it would be 100X better if it worked. Explain the situation to your father in law that the steel isn't suitable to make a good knife, and he will respect you all the more for your decision.

--nathan
 
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Hmmm, very interesting points guys. I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was brushing Ray off, in fact I tried hard to make it clear that I did value his input, so if I came off as brusque, please accept my apologies (it can be hard to type something and have it come across the same as something spoken). Again, please accept my apologies if I offended, it was certainly not my intention. I did come here for advice, and I suppose it is just difficult when you don't necessarily hear what you had hoped to hear, huh? :D

At any rate, I now have some more info to process and re-evaluate my decisions.

Thanks again guys, and I'll let you know what I wind up doing (unless I've offended so many that I should just go away, in which case I certainly will, I know I'm in deep waters here, and all I got is my water wings! :D )

Thanks.
 
There is no need to float away, I understand what you are trying to do. Perhaps another suggestion would be to use the saw blade to make a letter opener for him, that way it can't fall short on performance and be a disappointment to either of you.
 
Shore08 said:
Hmmm, very interesting points guys. I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was brushing Ray off, in fact I tried hard to make it clear that I did value his input, so if I came off as brusque, please accept my apologies (it can be hard to type something and have it come across the same as something spoken). Again, please accept my apologies if I offended, it was certainly not my intention. I did come here for advice, and I suppose it is just difficult when you don't necessarily hear what you had hoped to hear, huh? :D

At any rate, I now have some more info to process and re-evaluate my decisions.

Thanks again guys, and I'll let you know what I wind up doing (unless I've offended so many that I should just go away, in which case I certainly will, I know I'm in deep waters here, and all I got is my water wings! :D )

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Please don't go away. Spend a few dollars on some decent steel, or buy a blade and do a handle, and post some pics. Catch the bug, and post more pics. We want you to make knives and post pics. Thats what we're about.:thumbup:
 
These are all good guys here on Bladeforums, they don't get offended that easily. I don't think what you said was offensive anyways. Fact is that when we have limited resources at hand we have limited things we can do with them. My first attempt at any kind of knife making (I think I was 13 at the time) I decided to make a large sword. Little did I know I couldn't heat treat a bar of weld steel from Canadian tire. It didn't stop me from trying though.:D
 
Perhaps a little knife making info will help.

A knife blade has to be made from hardened steel to hold and edge. Without hardening, it may get sharp, but will get dull very fast. The hardening is done by heating the blade evenly to a particular temperature (determined by the steel. Anywhere from 1450F to 1950F), holding it there for a short time, and quenching it to convert the steel to martensite (the hard stuff). Then the blade is tempered by heating it to 400-500F and holding it there for about 2 hours. The temper is usually repeated twice.
Now, not all steel will convert to martensite. It has to have at least .50-.60% carbon (preferably near 1%), and certain other alloy requirements. Only some stainless steels will harden, too. Saw blades used to be made from a steel similar to L-6, or 15N20. That was a good knife steel. Then they started making saw blades with just hardened teeth....then they went with carbide teeth. The rest of the blade is low grade steel. A knife made from one of these and just ground out would look like a knife, but wouldn't work like a knife ( we call them KSO's, Knife Shaped Objects).

When starting to make knives, it is best to use a good grade known steel, like 1080. Fancy steel and found steels (like your saw blade) can be a problem when you don't know how to handle them, or if they are even usable.

Raymond won't be insulted by your decision to go ahead and make the knife, but he (and most of use here) will absolutely know that the knife will not be a winner with your dad.

Better that you purchase a VG-10 san-mai santoku blade from Jantz ($120 , http://jantzsupply.com/cartease/item-detail.cfm?ID=HD306) and put on a nice handle ( about another $20-30) and really WOW him with a superb professional grade kitchen tool that will last until his grand children have it.(value of $250-$350)
There are simpler stainless steel blades starting at $10 if your budget is lower than that. The VG-10 san-mai Japanese blades start around $40. You will be amazed at how sharp the are....and how sharp they look. Adding a handle and finishing the knife is simple and requires little more equipment than a drill, a file, and sandpaper. The blades come completely sharp !!!, you will have to wrap it in tape to work on it. If you ordered soon, you could do this easily for Christmas.

Send me an email if you need more info or help doing this.

Stacy
 
Welcome To Blade Forums. Nice to see ya.

That's cool what you want to do for your FIL. Bet you were bummed to learn the steel in the saw blade was junk. If you want to go ahead with using that piece, I like the the letter opener idea, or a putty knife, or something. Also, there might be other ways you could use it in a knife. I'm thinking as spacers (like washers) stacked with the guard and butt cap and maybe some other materials. Oh, that's right, you're doing scales, and probably not planning on fittings of that sort. Oh well, just some other ideas.

And again, WELCOME!
 
I would go ahead and finish the knifeand give it to him . Call it a letter opener. Tell him you will make him a real knife when you get some better steel.
One point for you.
Take care
TJ
 
I'm with the guys who suggest you finish the knife for FIL, and also think the letter opener idea is a great suggestion. From my perspective as a dad, FIL and grandfather I can say that nothing anyone has ever made for me has gone unappreciated. Reference the indecipherable pictures from our granddaughter that are framed and hanging on our living room wall! :D

From your description of him I expect your FIL will understand where you're coming from and treasure your gift. I also believe he will understand about the steel and be more than willing to look forward to a "real" working knife when you get the opportunity to use hardenable steel.

Like others, I look forward to all of your projects. Keep it up!
 
I understand the sentiment behind this and its unfortunate that the steel wont work for the blade. Its probably to thin to use as bolsters also. A knife with bolsters is much more difficult to make, especially for a first knife. Did you and your father in law make something special with that saw blade?

If this is going to be something he hangs on the wall or sits on his desk, you could go ahead with the project and let him know that you will make him another one that he can cut with. Im sure the fact that its your first knife and it was made with this "special" steel will mean much more to him than the fact that it wont hold an edge.
 
When I first became interested in making knives, I wanted the cheapest way to find out if I could actually produce a knife with my skills and to find out if it was something I would like. I found the cheapest finished blade I could find (a "Bear Claw" for $8.00 and some free corian) I read a tutorial using that blade and with all hand tools, finished a knife that I am still proud of. I am still hooked quite badly and am now making knives using stock removal method. So far I've given all my knives as gifts and I know they are being used.
Try your best with the resources you have, seek help if needed and good luck, Dan
 
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