New knife design, santoku/cleaver hybrid -- comments welcome

[zhyla]

I got helpful feedback on my first knife design and this is way more ambitious so I figure I'd better consult the pros before I cut any steel.

It's basically a large santoku style blade but raised up a bit. Not as tall as a Chinese cleaver, but way taller than most kitchen knives. Blade is 8" long and 3" tall. I'm undecided on the thickness. Probably thinned down from a .100" or .125" blank. The intended use is chopping vegetables and meat (no bones -- this isn't a western cleaver). I think being this tall even .100" will make it hefty enough. Thoughts?

The handle will be Japanese style with the octagonal profile, I think. I haven't drawn that so it looks pretty plain, but with the right combination of woods I think I can make the handle really pop.

There's no details on the blade, just one big flat grind. Looks boring on cardboard. I want the spine to be conducive to scraping stuff off a cutting board with the knife flipped over. It's not perfect for that as it is. The spine is angled down a bit from the handle, I could increase that angle.

Steel would be 1095 or O-1.

Thanks for the imminent advice! And for those that hated how crudely I finished my first knife, don't worry, I want this one to be pretty.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Tall & thin are in for the right way to go for a knife of this intent.
It looks like a very functional vegetable and meat processor. The height at the heel means you can guide it safely along your knuckles without cutting yourself. Also it can be sharpened for years and gives tall clean chops.

I would suggest that you go with the .100 or 3/32"

That what I use mostly for knives of this intent. I go to .125 for other culinary that may have light contact with bones.

Also ditch the Bamboo cutting board. There is lots of Silica in Bamboo and the plastic that they impregnate it with to hold it together is really rough on a A cutting edge. Go for natural wood boards like maple, walnut, ash etc.

 

[LARRYZ10]

I like your design very but I would suggest 0.125 thickness to make the blade more useful for chopping meat as well as vegetables...just my opinion It looks very stylish. Larry

 

[BonhamBlades]

Love the design and have made one similar. with mine I went with .125, however the next one I do will be .100. I cook for large groups of friends and after a day of chopping the extra .025 feels like a ton.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

That is pretty close to a saikachi deba in shape and size. The deba are usually thicker, but there are no rules. I would just call it a santoku. Keep us posted as it develops.

 

[stereo.pete]

That is pretty close to a saikachi deba in shape and size. The deba are usually thicker, but there are no rules. I would just call it a santoku. Keep us posted as it develops.

I was thinking that it was more in line with a traditional Nakiri, but then again I've only seen traditional Deba's, which are used for breaking down fish. I would strongly caution against a pure flat grind as the amount of stiction you will experience with product such as potatoes will be quite extreme. If you can manage some convexity in the geometry you will see a drastic improvement.

Good luck, and I can't wait to see your end result!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Nakiri would be more in line with use, but nakiri are narrower and usually straight or nearly straight edged:
http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/type/Nakiri.shtml

sushikiri (sushi cutting) are rounder;
http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/type/Sushikiri.shtml

saikachi are pretty close in shape:
http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/type/Saikachi_Deba.shtml

Except that zhyla is going a little wider than the norm, a santoku ( please...not santuko) is the closest to his use and shape:
http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/type/Santoku.shtml

 

[stereo.pete]

Stacy, thanks for the info on the saikachi deba, very strange knife design indeed.

 

[zhyla]

I would strongly caution against a pure flat grind as the amount of stiction you will experience with product such as potatoes will be quite extreme. If you can manage some convexity in the geometry you will see a drastic improvement.

Any hints on how to achieve that? I guess if I made it perfectly flat and then wrapped some sandpaper around some large diameter object I could get a gentle curve in there. Certainly complicates the finish sanding step. Any tips would be helpful. My toolset currently includes a 1x30 sander, a 4x36 sander (I haven't found a use for this yet), files, sandpaper.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

You have it backward. You don't want a hollow grind, you want a convex grind.

Just sand it from spine to edge in a stroke that rolls a bit as it approaches the edge. This will slowly make the area between the middle and edge curve (very minutely). Using a medium hard rubber backed sanding block makes this almost automatic.
If you have a belt sander, back away the platen and use a slack belt. As you make the passes, keep the spine slightly off the belt. It will automatically convex the bevel.

 

[zhyla]

Ah! You'd think after all these years and schooling I wouldn't get convex and concave confused every single time. Yeah I can do that, easy enough. My first blade came out with a slight convex grind because I was struggling to get it flat.

 

[gadgetguy9000]

If you are going to "chop" I would extend the flat portion of the blade to facilitate the up and down motion of chopping. As drawn, it is much more like a rocker cutter (as in a rocking motion from the tip to the heel.) Nakiris and Santokus are generally quite flat and are conducive to chopping vegetables - not sure what you mean when you say you are going to chop meat. Meat is generally sliced with longer blades. Debas are unitasker fish knives, the similar profile notwithstanding. The closest I have seen to this design is a $6 Thai "Kiwi" knife (second from the bottom). You might want to buy one and see if you like it. They are extremely thin, probably .08" or thinner. I had one but gave it away as it had too much belly for me.

I believe if you want a cleaver hybrid, you should go for a much flatter profile, perhaps something like this Takeda Banno Bunka. This will facilitate vegetable chopping as well as meat slicing.

John

 

[zhyla]

If you are going to "chop" I would extend the flat portion of the blade to facilitate the up and down motion of chopping. As drawn, it is much more like a rocker cutter (as in a rocking motion from the tip to the heel.) Nakiris and Santokus are generally quite flat and are conducive to chopping vegetables

Yeah, I'm considering pulling the tip down a bit to flatten out the profile. Undecided. The current blade edge follows closely a knife that I use almost exclusively and seemed like a good place to start.

not sure what you mean when you say you are going to chop meat.

Wrong term. I just mean that when I'm making a stir fry I'll cut up meat with the same knife rather than grab a 2nd knife. Vegetables is my main focus though.

The Thai cleaver is interesting. With a short grind like that the thickness matters a lot more.

 

[zhyla]

Can anyone offer some rough dimensions for this style of handle? One thing I read suggested starting with a 1" square x 5" long block and tapering it down from there. Is that in the right ballpark?