New knife guy trying to not step on toes

I

icentropy

Joined
Feb 13, 2012
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Howdy, I'm a newbie to the knive making world and i had a question regarding baseing knives off of other designs. There are a ton of designs out there, some of them are no longer produced. And out of the millions of different designs pretty much everything has already been done. so in a way there's very little originality left to capture. Now it's like little difference in shape or handle design set one apart form the other and basically everyone basis their design on something that's been done before even if it's a classic design.

So as a new guy I wanted to know how that works? Is it ok to take a style of knife, massage and modify it slightly and make it your own or is that a terrible thing? I will start making my own designs but i wanted to start off with a knife that i really loved that my dad gave to me when i was young. I changed it up a bit to my liking and made some (figured i'd make them to sell as a start) but now i found out that it was still in production around 5 years ago and the maker is still making knives (though not this style anymore).

What's the concensus on that?
 
There is no problem with it as long as you change it some and it's also a good idea to give the maker credit as in "based on a design by Joe Knifemaker"
Stan
 
It is handmade and you give it a few twists of your own and that will make it yours.

Of course people do not say much about all the wonderful makers who emulate the Loveless style. But then again Bob liked that people made knives even if they looked like his.
 
As long as it's "based on" not "my copy of" I think it's just fine. Maybe if you were at equivalent quality levels and directly competing it might be a bigger issue, but by then you'll most likely have tweaked the design enough to have it be your own. As you point out, it's only the details that differentiate the new from the old these days, but a few details add up to a whole new knife.
 
Thanks for the advice guys, I think i went a bit past "based on the design" and landed on "lightly modified version of". It isn't a direct copy but you'd have to have both knives in your hands to make it obvious. I changed the scale design, the way the handles attach, the angle of the finger guards and slightly changed the blade profile (made it thicker farther forward and made the angles stronger). mainly cause that's how i wanted mine. I loved the knive but thought, ehh if i'm gonna make one i might as well make it to my liking. After i made mine and people liked it i figured, hey that wasn't too hard i'll make some more to sell. Then, recently i found out who make the original design and that they're kind of a popular well know knife and I got concerned that I'd look like I was stealing a design...

Here it is, my first stab at knife making, based heavily on a design by (you know who)
2012-01-18_16-49-41_585.jpg

2012-01-18_16-50-09_539.jpg
 
Simply put, make what ever you want, as long as some part of it is not patented. There are just too many designs to make anything 100% yours, unless it involves mechanisms on folders. Copy as direct as you wish. Workmanship, or other small details will often tell the difference. There is not a knife made today, that some feature of it has not been done before. If you make an exact copy of someone elses work, tough if they don't like it. I've had it done to me, more than once, and I took it as a compliment. It's a nice gesture to say where you got the design, but design copy has an open season on it. You cannot legally stop it from happening, unless you can copyright it, or patent it.
 
LRB said:
Simply put, make what ever you want, as long as some part of it is not patented. There are just too many designs to make anything 100% yours, unless it involves mechanisms on folders. Copy as direct as you wish. Workmanship, or other small details will often tell the difference. There is not a knife made today, that some feature of it has not been done before. If you make an exact copy of someone elses work, tough if they don't like it. I've had it done to me, more than once, and I took it as a compliment. It's a nice gesture to say where you got the design, but design copy has an open season on it. You cannot legally stop it from happening, unless you can copyright it, or patent it.
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Yeah i figured it wasn't a legal issue, more of a moral issue. I don't want to piss anyone off. I just wanted to make this knife and once i saw that i could i wanted to explore knife making more, but didn't want to start on a bad note.

BTW I made the blade out of 440C and the handle out of G10/FR4

Oh and as far as directly competing or on the same quality level. I really don't know how that's judged honestly. I'm just starting but my "day job" is as an aerospace machinist/inspector. So i view quality very differently. Mine is more about dimensions and angles, etc. whereas a professional custom knife maker probably deals with quality in a more artistic and visual way. In that sense i think i'm a way's out in quality compared to anyone doing this for any length of time.
 
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At first I was going to call troll :), after viewing your knife but after you stated you're an aerospace machinist I'd say I'll have to step aside while you show me how to make a knife like that.. :D

very nicely done and as you've said already, since time (literally) I'd say every design has been done from one angle or another...

I think some of the best advice I've gotten thus far for inspiration is to walk up to the grinder with just a piece of steel in your hands, no design, no sketch, simply inspiration... now were talking art fellas... :D

good job man... !! with that as a first, this will be your day job!!!
 
Battle Creek Knives said:
At first I was going to call troll :), after viewing your knife but after you stated you're an aerospace machinist I'd say I'll have to step aside while you show me how to make a knife like that.. :D

very nicely done and as you've said already, since time (literally) I'd say every design has been done from one angle or another...

I think some of the best advice I've gotten thus far for inspiration is to walk up to the grinder with just a piece of steel in your hands, no design, no sketch, simply inspiration... now were talking art fellas... :D

good job man... !! with that as a first, this will be your day job!!!
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Thanks! yeah i'm not a troll just a second generation machinist that want's to try something different. :D I thought it was weird that as soon as I posted the pics, the thread went silent. I was like "uh oh" is that a good or bad sign. So is this not as popular of a knife as i thought? Anybody know the maker/model?

I went CRES cause i wanted something low maintenance. I'm no stranger to cutting steel so the blade wasn't too difficult. My favorite part of it is actually the contour of the thickness. You can't appreciate it from the pics but the knife is a full .220" thick from the butt all the way to about 1" from the point. The grip pattern was my own design based off of my main hobby/pasttime.
 
The reason for the silence was everyone was astounded by an initial effort of that quality. Excellent work. Most here will gladly share information with you. I know I will be glad to have another good machinist thats into knife making around. Weelcome
 
Looks alot like the Blackjack Mamba, made many years ago. Don't think anyone is making it now.
Dave
 
ib2v4u said:
The reason for the silence was everyone was astounded by an initial effort of that quality. Excellent work. Most here will gladly share information with you. I know I will be glad to have another good machinist thats into knife making around. Weelcome
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Cool, thanks for the welcome. I had a lot of fun making this one, it's not finished yet though. I still need to heat treat, cryo treat, and get some finishing touches done by a friend of mine that has a laser marker. Here's the insperation for the grip.
2012-02-13_17-15-15_823.jpg
 
DaveUSAF said:
Looks alot like the Blackjack Mamba, made many years ago. Don't think anyone is making it now.
Dave
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Yup that's the one! This is my version of that knife. I modified the blade profile, finger guard angles, grip (of course) and the way the grip is attached.

Here's a pic of the "guts". I made CRES threaded bushings to locate the grip on and countersunk both sides of each handle. That locates it perfectly each time and provides a lot more surface area for the handle so the connetion is stronger. The bushings, holes on the knife and handles are all within .001" so it's all a snug fit. If you remove the screws the handles still stay well attached and you have to tap them off. I needed to figure out a way to be able to remove the handles and replace them easily incase the handles get damaged, or the blade needs to be refinished or sandblasted, etc.

2012-01-18_16-18-26_810.jpg
 
icentropy said:
I'm just starting but my "day job" is as an aerospace machinist/inspector.
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I'm not surprised to hear that. The grinds and details on your knife are exceptionally clean and crisp. I assure you, that is a compliment. Not my style at all, but I admire good craftsmanship, whether it's done by a person forging on a flat rock or a person machining on the most modern equipment available.

I'm not familiar with that design, so I can't comment on whether you're stepping on any toes. But clearly you have the skill to build whatever you want. So... build what you want.

440C is sooo 1985... actually more like 1965. Seriously. It appears that you're utilizing very modern design and machining techniques, why bother with a 50-yr-old alloy for your blades? Step up to modern "powder" steels from Crucible, Carpenter, Buddeholm, etc.

I'm looking forward to seeing more from you :thumbup:
 
+1 on what james said about steel. With that much going on, you should check out Bruno the steel Baron or Chuck at Alpha Knife Supply.
 
Thanks for the compiments guys. I researched a few different stainless steels but settled on 440C because it seemed to be the best combination of performance and value. If i get into knive making more seriously, I'd like to make knives that are at least partially affordable, and from what i read 440C when it's heat treated and Cryo processed is 90% of what the new high end steels are? At least that's what i kind of found from the research i did online, I should have subscribed to this forum before i started to ask the experts first though. I also read that the main reason that 440C kind of feel out of favor was mostly because of the fact that it was old and boring, not because it wasn't a good choice for a knife? Again, none of this is from experience at all, i'm just paraphrasing what i read. If that's wrong, what do you guys suggest for a good CRES blade for this sort of knife but isn't crazy expensive?
 
I think 440C gets a bad rap at times because it HAS been around so long. However, like you said, when treated correctly, it's a good general purpose stainless with great corrosion resistance. Sure, you can squeeze more out of many of the new super stainlesses and even CPM154, but 440C will do pretty much what you ask it to do unless you need something with crazy high toughness. For what it's worth, 440C also sometimes gets a bad rap because of many of the cheap imported blades that are marked "440" which people associate with 440C, even though it's usually an entirely different grade. That has resulted in a negative connotation of 440C that persists among many lay persons.

By the way, welcome to the forum! And GREAT job on a first effort. As has been said, make what you like, taking inspiration from what you've seen. That's what all of us do to some degree whether we realize it or not.

BTW, I love how your first post reflects your screen name. Trying to get things done without creating more chaos among the masses (of knife makers) :D.

--nathan
 
Welcome, good looking blade for sure, love the scales. I have a question for you, are the bevels CNC machined or ground? Again sweet blade, thanks for posting it.
 
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