New knife maker waterjet and bevel angle question

1

1huckstir

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Jun 27, 2018
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I am making a Musso Bowie . This knife ,do to it's size and shape ,would be a nightmare for even an expert .
It will be made from w2 . Even though I am a welder and fabricator ,I wouldn't dream of such a task . Because of the tapers and the amount of metal removed ,that knife would be chanting " " WARP , WARP ,WARP , " as it was headed to the oven to be hardened . So I called our waterjet guy . I will have the stick of w2 hardened and tempered . The waterjet guy will cut the blank ,set the knife on edge and cut distal taper as well as the bevels . I looked at the stickies ,I am still confused .Our water jet man needs to know the main bevel angle ,the height of the secondary bevel and it's angle ,or should I just do a flat grind ?
The distal taper will start out at 7/32 and taper to 3/16 . Should I taper the clip from 3/16 all the way out or should there be another distal taper before the point .
The tang will be flat ,but tapered in 4 directions . The handle will be cut out by water jet ,then it will be set up on end and the hole for the tang will be cut to match the tang . The fuller will be cut to match the handle ! Plus the cut man says the cuts will be so smooth it won't need any sanding ! Plus It will be done in a day !
Before this gets started I have to give this info to the cut man . I am real excited to get this project started . Any help would be so appreciated thank you
 
I’ve been having my profiles of my knife Patterns cut by waterjet for over 15 years and then I grind my bevels..——— I am not aware of a Water Jet being able to bevel Cut a Knife Blade at any degree in steel because of what they refer to as Washout, nor can the put in a Fuller with a Water Jet .. Are you sure this is the process?
 
Besides the crazy fee for that much waterjet work, it is probably a bad idea in general.

If the waterjet guy can't figure the angles from his software or plain math, that it is also a red flag.

If a Musso bowie is beyond your skills, pick a less ambitious project.

Another avenue, and far cheaper is to make the blade and sent to a professional HTer, like Peter's, for HT.

Warp isn't caused by size or blade shape. A big knife like a Musso could be less likely that a thin fillet. Even the bar of steel if pre-hardened could warp in the quench. Using quench plates after the quench as the blade approaches the Ms can eliminate the problem.

Even grinding, proper stress relief and grain refinement, even heating in austenitization, even quench into the proper medium for the steel used, hand straightening ( with gloves and/or a bending board), and quench plates immediately after any necessary hand straightening are how to assure a straight blade.
 
Stacy is correct, and honestly, you're more likely to end up getting warp from having somebody that doesn't know what they're doing, trying to machine bevel in on hardened steel.

Being hard doesn't magically make it immune to stress, in fact, that much heavy machining after hardening, is MUCH more likely to introduce stress, and subsequent warp.

I agree, take a step back, wait until you're experienced enough to take this project on. It's an advanced project sure, but it's nothing crazy. Focus your efforts on developing the skills necessary to make more advanced projects, and they'll come naturally. If you spend all your time trying to figure out a way to do something more complex than you have the skill for, you'll never have the time to develop that skill, and the work (even if you figure out some shortcuts) will show it.

Becoming an adept maker of custom, hand made knives, is as much a trial of patience and perseverance, as developing the actual techniques. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.
 
Curtiss Knives has done waterjet cutting of the bevel/distal taper. He posted here; it was perhaps 8-9 years ago. His account name at that time was Great Lakes Waterjet. You might be able to find the post(s) with enough determination. It was an experimental process and the ROI was very poor.

As for angles, it is 10th grade math. SOHCAHTOA.

EDIT: here ya go. Photos have been removed https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/waterjet-cut-grinds.590094/
 
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While it's technically possible to do what you're describing on a waterjet, practically I think it's a pipe dream. What's the set up apparatus for holding the part on edge? How is the machine going to compensate for movment of the part as material is relieved? What is the cut time for what would essentially be a ~2.5" deep cut to get a finish like you describe? The cost for that time?

It would be cheaper and more practical to 3D machine it. And for the costs you're talking about I think you could grind 10 and throw them away to get 1 good one and still be ahead.
 
Google Steven Penner.He has a chart for flat grinds that lists height of grind on various stock thickness in degrees.Good luck.
 
Just a note that Great Lakes waterjet sort of went down in flames here. He made a lot of claims, but never seem to deliver on orders.

I agree with kuraki that if you want this Bowie blade made (and don't want to grind it yourself), have a good machinist do it on a 3D mill. It will still be costly, but will give a much better result.
 
I have never forged a Musso, nor planned one out, but the problems I see in its design don't particulary include warping. The thick spine and (what appears to be) a FFG dont seem that they would make the blade particularly prone to warping. Moreover, knives with a FFG and thick(ish) spine are quite easy to pull warps out of during temper as they lend themselves well to clamping/shimming against angle.

Maybe I am missing something here? I am curious about how the brass back accent is joined? Hidden pins are the only method I can think of that would allow a permanent joining without making subesquent grinding and finishing a really miserable process. You could braise it on (before or after HT) but that would be really miserable to work around later on.

Edit: I suppose you could mill a dado in the spine and braise in a brass insert and grind it all flush, but in most photos, the brass back seems to sit proud of the spine and the bevels.
 
I guess you use resist to keep the mess to a minimum and then painstakingly clean it up after the fact. Looks like a pain, it would definatley have negative ramifications for cutting and stabbing performance. I think it may be for looks, but after a bit of googling it seems that the idea was the softer metal may catch a blade you were trying to parry.

That idea seems dumb as you already have a guard that will do the same, and as a rule, when parrying a cut or thrust, the preferance is that the blade doesn't catch. You want to swat the blow aside. Manually stopping an attack in line with a cut or thrust reqires much more strength, doesn't work well, and leaves the attacker's weapon in line with your person, which is no bueno. I am guessing that whatever its origional purpose it probably has just been incoporated into subsequent blades for looks.
 
I can't comment on that my knowledge of fighting with a knife is limited to stick the pointy end in the other guy until he stops trying to do the same to you.
 
Not trying to be smart here, but are you wanting to get into knife making, or just have someone make you a knife? By the time the process is figured out you'd probably have as much time as it takes to get through Jay Fisher's waiting list and and spent more money than it would cost for him to make you a custom one if it could even be done effectively at all. (from what I read his waiting list is years out and his prices are in the thousands)

I think if the wheel could have been successfully recreated with that process it already would have been. JMHO. Sounds like a large waste of time and money to me other than having the profile jetted.
 
1huckstir said:
I am making a Musso Bowie . This knife ,do to it's size and shape ,would be a nightmare for even an expert .

It will be made from w2 . Even though I am a welder and fabricator ,I wouldn't dream of such a task . Because of the tapers and the amount of metal removed ,that knife would be chanting " " WARP , WARP ,WARP , " as it was headed to the oven to be hardened
Click to expand...
I've made many Bowies from W2, never a nightmare and rarely have a warp?
 
Tell us why you don't think this blade can be ground, even by an expert. I just finished this pattern on a 10 1/4 inch blade, with a height of 1 7/8 inches. Blades of this size are best hardened early to resist warp. I finish grind these bevels on a 2x72 wet machine.
I'm no expert but I don't find this blade that hard to grind. Maybe it's that I use a Bubble Jig to control the angles. including the false edge and edge set. I'll try to get a pic posted later today. May be I'm missing something here. I know nothing about water jets.
I'm going to learn something here, I know.

Happy grinding, Fred
 
So you're a new maker and you wanna jump right into a Musso? You should heed Stacy's advice and make about a hundred other knives before you even think about pulling off a Musso. I've been making knives for over 10 years and have always wanted to make one but haven't done so because I didn't think I could do the design justice.
 
Huckstir if you want to make a knife but you do not want to make the knife maybe look at the blanks some knife supply places sell, maybe you can find what you want already done ?
 
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Check out the volunteer hamon. The bevel angles on this knife are 2 1/2 degrees per side.
 
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