New knife maker waterjet and bevel angle question

[Fred.Rowe]

Low temp solder I believe is how it's typically done.

It's the purpose of the thing I don't understand.

I think it's supposed to make it pertty.

 

[Drew Riley]

I hate to tell you, but either your "cut man" is taking you for a ride, or he has little to no idea what he's doing. For one, there are very few CNC machining processes that will leave you with a finish so smooth you wouldn't need to sand or polish the final product, and waterjet is no where close to being on that very short list. Even with the best possible finish (which will be the slowest and most expensive, it's going to need some pretty significant cleanup. Something like wire EDM might get you closer (though it will be much more expensive and take even longer), or somebody who really knew what they doing on a VMC, but for something like a Musso bowie, you're probably gonna be out a few thousand bucks for machine and shop time.

I'd really love to know how you cut a fuller on a waterjet as well, though if I'm not mistaken, the Musso bowie doesn't even have a fuller (traditionally).

I agree with Stacy, anybody running a waterjet in any professional capacity should be able to model your tapers and bevels in CAD/CAM software quite easily, though I still don't think you'd get the results you were looking for.

Take the money you'd spend at a machine shop, and either buy a Musso bowie, commision a maker to build you one, or start practicing yourself.

Warp would be the least of my concerns on the Musso build, and warp is far from impossible to correct.

 

[SBuzek]

I say troll, screen name, 3 posts and pushing all the right buttons to get a reaction and has not been in the thread since opening.

 

[Leading Edge Fab]

Hahahaha, best line of BS I've read in a long time.

I am making a Musso Bowie . This knife ,do to it's size and shape ,would be a nightmare for even an expert .
It will be made from w2 . Even though I am a welder and fabricator ,I wouldn't dream of such a task . Because of the tapers and the amount of metal removed ,that knife would be chanting " " WARP , WARP ,WARP , " as it was headed to the oven to be hardened . So I called our waterjet guy . I will have the stick of w2 hardened and tempered . The waterjet guy will cut the blank ,set the knife on edge and cut distal taper as well as the bevels . I looked at the stickies ,I am still confused .Our water jet man needs to know the main bevel angle ,the height of the secondary bevel and it's angle ,or should I just do a flat grind ?
The distal taper will start out at 7/32 and taper to 3/16 . Should I taper the clip from 3/16 all the way out or should there be another distal taper before the point .
The tang will be flat ,but tapered in 4 directions . The handle will be cut out by water jet ,then it will be set up on end and the hole for the tang will be cut to match the tang . The fuller will be cut to match the handle ! Plus the cut man says the cuts will be so smooth it won't need any sanding ! Plus It will be done in a day !
Before this gets started I have to give this info to the cut man . I am real excited to get this project started . Any help would be so appreciated thank you

 

[Don Hanson III]

Hahahaha, best line of BS I've read in a long time.

^^^^^^

 

[skillgannon]

It's not even April

 

[john april]

I say troll, screen name, 3 posts and pushing all the right buttons to get a reaction and has not been in the thread since opening.

i guess he does not value our opinions lol.

 

[1huckstir]

Thank you all for the reply's I appreciate them

 

[1huckstir]

Besides the crazy fee for that much waterjet work, it is probably a bad idea in general.

If the waterjet guy can't figure the angles from his software or plain math, that it is also a red flag.

If a Musso bowie is beyond your skills, pick a less ambitious project.

Another avenue, and far cheaper is to make the blade and sent to a professional HTer, like Peter's, for HT.

Warp isn't caused by size or blade shape. A big knife like a Musso could be less likely that a thin fillet. Even the bar of steel if pre-hardened could warp in the quench. Using quench plates after the quench as the blade approaches the Ms can eliminate the problem.

Even grinding, proper stress relief and grain refinement, even heating in austenitization, even quench into the proper medium for the steel used, hand straightening ( with gloves and/or a bending board), and quench plates immediately after any necessary hand straightening are how to assure a straight blade.

Sorry for not replying sooner ,monitor fell of the table and broke," Have you heard of any trouble with warp from .Peter's Heat treat ?

 

[1huckstir]

i guess he does not value our opinions lol.

Yes I do . Welders watch these boards for heat treat info for welding tool steels . All those stupid nubie questions help us welders greatly

 

[1huckstir]

Tell us why you don't think this blade can be ground, even by an expert. I just finished this pattern on a 10 1/4 inch blade, with a height of 1 7/8 inches. Blades of this size are best hardened early to resist warp. I finish grind these bevels on a 2x72 wet machine.
I'm no expert but I don't find this blade that hard to grind. Maybe it's that I use a Bubble Jig to control the angles. including the false edge and edge set. I'll try to get a pic posted later today. May be I'm missing something here. I know nothing about water jets.
I'm going to learn something here, I know.

Happy grinding, Fred

I know It can be done .You all put out incredible work .I know my gun smith could do it on his mill . Just trying to reinvent the wheel I guess

 

[1huckstir]

Not trying to be smart here, but are you wanting to get into knife making, or just have someone make you a knife? By the time the process is figured out you'd probably have as much time as it takes to get through Jay Fisher's waiting list and and spent more money than it would cost for him to make you a custom one if it could even be done effectively at all. (from what I read his waiting list is years out and his prices are in the thousands)

I think if the wheel could have been successfully recreated with that process it already would have been. JMHO. Sounds like a large waste of time and money to me other than having the profile jetted.

Yes you are certainly correct .

I guess you use resist to keep the mess to a minimum and then painstakingly clean it up after the fact. Looks like a pain, it would definatley have negative ramifications for cutting and stabbing performance. I think it may be for looks, but after a bit of googling it seems that the idea was the softer metal may catch a blade you were trying to parry.

That idea seems dumb as you already have a guard that will do the same, and as a rule, when parrying a cut or thrust, the preferance is that the blade doesn't catch. You want to swat the blow aside. Manually stopping an attack in line with a cut or thrust reqires much more strength, doesn't work well, and leaves the attacker's weapon in line with your person, which is no bueno. I am guessing that whatever its origional purpose it probably has just been incoporated into subsequent blades for looks.

There have been 10 original knives I have seen ,in different historical documents ,museums etc that look almost identical to the musso. Jefferson Davis has a rather famous print of him holding one

 

[1huckstir]

So you're a new maker and you wanna jump right into a Musso? You should heed Stacy's advice and make about a hundred other knives before you even think about pulling off a Musso. I've been making knives for over 10 years and have always wanted to make one but haven't done so because I didn't think I could do the design justice.

I do make butcher knives and I know The musso Is way above my level . That is why I was looking for a short cut ., The fly in my soup was not understanding how the water jet and other machineing operations affect the steel

 

[john april]

the brass back from what i have read was to aid in blocking or to parry another blade as a defensive move. the opponents blade will stick or sink into the brass when you catch or push/deflect a knife blow away from you with the spine of your knife. if it was just the steel it would most likely slide off. thank you for returning to the thread, i have renewed faith in you

 

[1huckstir]

So you're a new maker and you wanna jump right into a Musso? You should heed Stacy's advice and make about a hundred other knives before you even think about pulling off a Musso. I've been making knives for over 10 years and have always wanted to make one but haven't done so because I didn't think I could do the design justice.

I do make butcher knives , "not equal to the work seen here ", but I know the musso is above my level . I will order a stick of 1084 and do my best ,If I fail I will commission one of you all to make it

Besides the crazy fee for that much waterjet work, it is probably a bad idea in general.

If the waterjet guy can't figure the angles from his software or plain math, that it is also a red flag.

If a Musso bowie is beyond your skills, pick a less ambitious project.

Another avenue, and far cheaper is to make the blade and sent to a professional HTer, like Peter's, for HT.

Warp isn't caused by size or blade shape. A big knife like a Musso could be less likely that a thin fillet. Even the bar of steel if pre-hardened could warp in the quench. Using quench plates after the quench as the blade approaches the Ms can eliminate the problem.

Even grinding, proper stress relief and grain refinement, even heating in austenitization, even quench into the proper medium for the steel used, hand straightening ( with gloves and/or a bending board), and quench plates immediately after any necessary hand straightening are how to

Just a note that Great Lakes waterjet sort of went down in flames here. He made a lot of claims, but never seem to deliver on orders.

I agree with kuraki that if you want this Bowie blade made (and don't want to grind it yourself), have a good machinist do it on a 3D mill. It will still be costly, but will give a much better result.

I will order a stick of 1084 and try it .If fail ,I will commision one of you all to do it

 

[1huckstir]

the brass back from what i have read was to aid in blocking or to parry another blade as a defensive move. the opponents blade will stick or sink into the brass when you catch or push/deflect a knife blow away from you with the spine of your knife. if it was just the steel it would most likely slide off. thank you for returning to the thread, i have renewed faith in you

Yea just an oh shit moment at the worst time

 

[1huckstir]

Stacy is correct, and honestly, you're more likely to end up getting warp from having somebody that doesn't know what they're doing, trying to machine bevel in on hardened steel.

Being hard doesn't magically make it immune to stress, in fact, that much heavy machining after hardening, is MUCH more likely to introduce stress, and subsequent warp.

I agree, take a step back, wait until you're experienced enough to take this project on. It's an advanced project sure, but it's nothing crazy. Focus your efforts on developing the skills necessary to make more advanced projects, and they'll come naturally. If you spend all your time trying to figure out a way to do something more complex than you have the skill for, you'll never have the time to develop that skill, and the work (even if you figure out some shortcuts) will show it.

Becoming an adept maker of custom, hand made knives, is as much a trial of patience and perseverance, as developing the actual techniques. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.

I am computer stupid and just dont understand the computer .My fly in the soup was not understanding the effects of machining hardened steel .I can weld it ,but I'm not a machinist

 

[1huckstir]

Besides the crazy fee for that much waterjet work, it is probably a bad idea in general.

If the waterjet guy can't figure the angles from his software or plain math, that it is also a red flag.

If a Musso bowie is beyond your skills, pick a less ambitious project.

Another avenue, and far cheaper is to make the blade and sent to a professional HTer, like Peter's, for HT.

Warp isn't caused by size or blade shape. A big knife like a Musso could be less likely that a thin fillet. Even the bar of steel if pre-hardened could warp in the quench. Using quench plates after the quench as the blade approaches the Ms can eliminate the problem.

Even grinding, proper stress relief and grain refinement, even heating in austenitization, even quench into the proper medium for the steel used, hand straightening ( with gloves and/or a bending board), and quench plates immediately after any necessary hand straightening are how to assure a straight blade.

Hahahaha, best line of BS I've read in a long time.

I am just a welder I don't under stand water jet or machine work . I have had bevels cut in 3 inch plate so I figured why not

 

[joedhiggins]

the brass back from what i have read was to aid in blocking or to parry another blade as a defensive move. the opponents blade will stick or sink into the brass when you catch or push/deflect a knife blow away from you with the spine of your knife. if it was just the steel it would most likely slide off. thank you for returning to the thread, i have renewed faith in you

The problem is that a parry is designed NOT to stop a blow but rather deflect it away from a line that includes part of your person. Stopping a blow essentillay requires that you don't move the line of attack away from your person, is incredibly tiring, and leaves your opponent setup for a quick strike into you. Think of the dumb scenes in movies and tv shows where a defender will catch an attacker's overhead stroke. This is bad for a few reasons, chief amond them that you are matching your strength against his blade (and body's) momentum, and trying to do it through a couple inches of blade travel. Worse, once the blow is stopped, all the attacker has to do to score a touch is thrust - the blade is now pointed at the defender (generally his head), and his weapon is in no position to do anything about it.

I am not arguing that the purpose of the brass isn't as stated, it may have been, but I doubt it would work for that purpose, and, if it did, it would be disadventageous.

 

[lanternnate]

The problem is that a parry is designed NOT to stop a blow but rather deflect it away from a line that includes part of your person. Stopping a blow essentillay requires that you don't move the line of attack away from your person, is incredibly tiring, and leaves your opponent setup for a quick strike into you. Think of the dumb scenes in movies and tv shows where a defender will catch an attacker's overhead stroke. This is bad for a few reasons, chief amond them that you are matching your strength against his blade (and body's) momentum, and trying to do it through a couple inches of blade travel. Worse, once the blow is stopped, all the attacker has to do to score a touch is thrust - the blade is now pointed at the defender (generally his head), and his weapon is in no position to do anything about it.

I am not arguing that the purpose of the brass isn't as stated, it may have been, but I doubt it would work for that purpose, and, if it did, it would be disadventageous.

A knife fight isn’t fencing. I’m not an expert on bowie fighting technique, but your frame of reference seems to be sport fencing based on the scoring a touch comment. Sport fencing is long removed from real sword fighting techniques and I would think even farther removed from knife fighting. I’d have to imagine a knife fight is as likely to become a grappling situation as anything else. In that case it’s logical to think locking into and controlling the other blade could be advantageous.