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New knife with spyderhole in sight?
- Thread starter PiterM
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Per Neil hisself (from another forum!):"Official specs are 4.3" blade, 9.7" OAL, 5/32 S30V."
Also remember reading availability to be Mar./Apr. '04 at MSRP $190/195. Also flat grind.
I'm getting in line!!
Edited to add URL for local thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=284136
Larry S.
Also remember reading availability to be Mar./Apr. '04 at MSRP $190/195. Also flat grind.
I'm getting in line!!
Edited to add URL for local thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=284136
Larry S.
glockman99
RIP Dann, you were a good guy.
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It looks like the pocket-clip is on the wrong side; (I'm a "lefty").
Idiots.:grumpy:
Idiots.:grumpy:
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
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- 9,948
Maybe there'll be enough demand for a left-handed version. Go to the Benchmade forum and drop a line there.
The hole issue is a bit interesting. Maybe the real model will be ovaled up a little.
That's most likely not going to be a flat-ground blade. Most of Benchmade's "flat" grinds are shallow hollow grinds. Not as deep as a Native or ATR by any stretch, but not flat either.
I'm very impressed by this knife, but have no plans to buy it. There are already more than enough folders from Spyderco and Extrema Ratio on the must-have list.
Quoted from Neil Blackwood, elsewhere on BFC......
"Very interesting thread for sure!! Thanks to Dennis, Chuck Bybee and others for putting things in perspective. I agree, it's buzz! Buzz is good. I've been around the forums long enough now to see this many times before. As you all know, I've had my own knives discussed and debated more times than I can remember. People here are passionate about knives and these passionate feelings come out, good bad or indifferent. I like hearing it all, the bad is often more important than the good As mentioned in the recent Blade Magazine article, I credit just such immediate feedback for helping me progress as a maker. As always I also credit feedback and customer suggestions for many of my design ques and parameters, this knife included.
Just a few points I'd like to make......
First the specs are indeed, 4.3" blade, 9.7 overall. 5/32" S30V blade steel. The knife is NOT just a reduced Skirmish. At some point, I'll post a picture of a 630 prototype next to a custom Skirmish. It's similar but with an overall thinner profile. My goal was to create a knife in this size range that was easy to carry. The 630 is very light and like other knives of this construction, easy to carry. Because of the bare framelock design, close attention was paid to ergonomics. While making it thin and light, how it feels in the hand was of utmost importance. Taking ques from the the Skirmish, reverse grip was also a consideration, the thumb grip radii as I call them were kept and can be seen in the picture towards the back of the top of the frame!
Lastly, the blade. People often compliment me regarding the grinds on my folders because they CUT. With my customs, I tend to lean towards cutting ability over blade strength on many of my designs. I often hear the old saying, I have a crowbar for prying doors......... My feeling is that if I'm going to use a material like S30V, I might as well take full advantage of it's tough properties and make a thinner blade that actually CUTS!! Considering all that goes into the blade/edge geometry, I think we've hit just the right balance with the flat grind.....YES FLAT GRIND on the 630!
Thanks again for your enthusiasm, it's all very much welcomed, appreciated and considered!
Neil"
Just my/his 2 cents worth.....?!?!?!
Larry S.
"Very interesting thread for sure!! Thanks to Dennis, Chuck Bybee and others for putting things in perspective. I agree, it's buzz! Buzz is good. I've been around the forums long enough now to see this many times before. As you all know, I've had my own knives discussed and debated more times than I can remember. People here are passionate about knives and these passionate feelings come out, good bad or indifferent. I like hearing it all, the bad is often more important than the good As mentioned in the recent Blade Magazine article, I credit just such immediate feedback for helping me progress as a maker. As always I also credit feedback and customer suggestions for many of my design ques and parameters, this knife included.
Just a few points I'd like to make......
First the specs are indeed, 4.3" blade, 9.7 overall. 5/32" S30V blade steel. The knife is NOT just a reduced Skirmish. At some point, I'll post a picture of a 630 prototype next to a custom Skirmish. It's similar but with an overall thinner profile. My goal was to create a knife in this size range that was easy to carry. The 630 is very light and like other knives of this construction, easy to carry. Because of the bare framelock design, close attention was paid to ergonomics. While making it thin and light, how it feels in the hand was of utmost importance. Taking ques from the the Skirmish, reverse grip was also a consideration, the thumb grip radii as I call them were kept and can be seen in the picture towards the back of the top of the frame!
Lastly, the blade. People often compliment me regarding the grinds on my folders because they CUT. With my customs, I tend to lean towards cutting ability over blade strength on many of my designs. I often hear the old saying, I have a crowbar for prying doors......... My feeling is that if I'm going to use a material like S30V, I might as well take full advantage of it's tough properties and make a thinner blade that actually CUTS!! Considering all that goes into the blade/edge geometry, I think we've hit just the right balance with the flat grind.....YES FLAT GRIND on the 630!
Thanks again for your enthusiasm, it's all very much welcomed, appreciated and considered!
Neil"
Just my/his 2 cents worth.....?!?!?!
Larry S.
Since I raised the question of the use of the SpyderHole opening device in the General Forum, I'll say here that I do not see Neil answering it there or anybody else, for that matter. I know that I sometimes spring to Sal's defense when he, perhaps, would rather that I not, but I do get tired of seeing all manner of hole shapes being used to get around his copyright or patent on the basic concept without paying for its use; Hell, I would even be satisfied if they would even just give him a nod now and then for it. Someone, Shootist16, IIRC, pointed out that that Neil has used this 3-holes in the blade system as his "mark" for some time, even on fixed blades. I am not that familiar with his work and, if this is true, perhaps I have jumped to an unwarranted conclusion, but the fact that the third hole is so noticeably larger than the first twoo does make me wonder.
The Blackwood name is pretty much synonymous with the three-hole (gradually getting bigger as they approach the hilt) design as an aesthetic trademark.
Over the years, there've been much, much, much fewer, I believe, Blackwood models without than with the holes -- most times, the holes, if not present, are due to technical demands (i.e. a carbon-fiber blade).
Instead of Howard Viele's trademark three little, identical holes in-line, Neil's mark is the triple in-line, gradually enlargening.
I'm a Spyderco fan. I'm a benchmade fanatic. And I'm also undeniably a lover of Blackwoods. I see it not as treading on Spydie's sacred grounds, but rather, just that Neil used these holes to incorporate into them a degree of necessary functionality with the folder design.
Why has Neil, Sal, Spyderco, or Benchmade not yet made a peep about this potential conflict that many enthusiasts have debated over? I have no clue, and I do not want to speculate, either, as it would be out of my place to do so.
All I know is that all parties involved are true top-of-the-line knife-guys, and that if there are points of contention, surely, they'll handle them among themselves.
Allen
aka DumboRAT
PS: FullerH, as a fellow knife-lover, be it fixed-blade or folder, trust me, you owe it to yourself to at leat have a look at Blackwood's creations. They are among the MOST sought-after works today, and most, if not all, pieces are spoken for years before they are even out of Neil's shop; even secondary-market competition is extremely fast and furious over his artistic, yet fully functional, pieces.
Over the years, there've been much, much, much fewer, I believe, Blackwood models without than with the holes -- most times, the holes, if not present, are due to technical demands (i.e. a carbon-fiber blade).
Instead of Howard Viele's trademark three little, identical holes in-line, Neil's mark is the triple in-line, gradually enlargening.
I'm a Spyderco fan. I'm a benchmade fanatic. And I'm also undeniably a lover of Blackwoods. I see it not as treading on Spydie's sacred grounds, but rather, just that Neil used these holes to incorporate into them a degree of necessary functionality with the folder design.
Why has Neil, Sal, Spyderco, or Benchmade not yet made a peep about this potential conflict that many enthusiasts have debated over? I have no clue, and I do not want to speculate, either, as it would be out of my place to do so.
All I know is that all parties involved are true top-of-the-line knife-guys, and that if there are points of contention, surely, they'll handle them among themselves.
Allen
aka DumboRAT
PS: FullerH, as a fellow knife-lover, be it fixed-blade or folder, trust me, you owe it to yourself to at leat have a look at Blackwood's creations. They are among the MOST sought-after works today, and most, if not all, pieces are spoken for years before they are even out of Neil's shop; even secondary-market competition is extremely fast and furious over his artistic, yet fully functional, pieces.
I have said my piece and I am done with it. Enough.
Allen, they are, indeed, very nice, but I prefer older looking designs for my choices to collect. Right now, I am mostly interested in items that will complement my historical interests in Roman and Migration Era history and my re-enacting. For example, I designed a Gladius Hispaniensis that was made by Erik Stevenson at Phoenix Metalcrafters back in 2001 and ordered a "Roman Riding Sword", a replica of a Migration Era sword or a very late Roman Empire sword pulled from a Danish bog in the 1890s, from Patrick Barta of TEMPL in the Czech Republic, also in 2001. I also acquired a Norse sword from the Viking Era last Spring and a Depeeka Horsehead Falcata/Machaira last Summer, as well as a Lutel repro French Dagger that looks, for all the world, like a Bowie knife, broad blade, clipped point, and all. My dream, right now, is another Migration Era sword or a really nice Seax Knife, but I also need a good Spangenhelm replica of a 6th-7th Century vintage helmet, so I am in a bind, since I am also very interested in a Chinook II when it comes out. So little money, so many goodies. Sigh.
Allen, they are, indeed, very nice, but I prefer older looking designs for my choices to collect. Right now, I am mostly interested in items that will complement my historical interests in Roman and Migration Era history and my re-enacting. For example, I designed a Gladius Hispaniensis that was made by Erik Stevenson at Phoenix Metalcrafters back in 2001 and ordered a "Roman Riding Sword", a replica of a Migration Era sword or a very late Roman Empire sword pulled from a Danish bog in the 1890s, from Patrick Barta of TEMPL in the Czech Republic, also in 2001. I also acquired a Norse sword from the Viking Era last Spring and a Depeeka Horsehead Falcata/Machaira last Summer, as well as a Lutel repro French Dagger that looks, for all the world, like a Bowie knife, broad blade, clipped point, and all. My dream, right now, is another Migration Era sword or a really nice Seax Knife, but I also need a good Spangenhelm replica of a 6th-7th Century vintage helmet, so I am in a bind, since I am also very interested in a Chinook II when it comes out. So little money, so many goodies. Sigh.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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- Dec 27, 1998
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- 11,745
Hi FullerH. Thanx for the insight and the support. Appreciate. Spyderco does seem to be a design target.
Spyderco invented and has been consistently using the round opening hole since 1981. It was first covered by our patents (ending in the early 2000's) and by our registered trademark (which began in the late 90's). Our round opening hole trademark was been a symbol of quality, performance and integrity for more than 20 years.
Custom makers selling knives in America have been paying our modest fee ($50/year) for many years for the legal right to use our opening hole. "Whiskers" Allen was the first to begin the "honor roll" many years ago. There are more than 50 custom makers from all over the world that are licensed to use the Spyderco opening hole. One condition of the license is that designs cannot be sold to manufactuers for production that incorporate the round hole.
Spyderco also owns patents on a diamond shaped hole (licensed to John Anthon of Timberline) and an arrowhead shaped hole not being used.
These patents and trademarks were/are only relevant to folding knives and did/do not include fixed blades.
The fact that there are so many folders with "other than round" opening holes on the market is testimonial to the fact that many wish to follow our lead.
Spyderco licensed Benchmade to use the patented (at the time) & trademarked round hole for a while in the 90's. It was used to launch their AFCK. Later the agreement ended and Benchmade went to their oval hole, which is fine and fair.
Spyderco's hound hole is a registered trademark with the US government. We've have always tried to run our business in an honest, fair and proper manner.
To my eye, it looks like a Spyderco, but I'm biased.
Take away the large hole and leave the other two and it looks "less" like a Spyderco.
Take away all of the holes and put a thumb stud there, and it doesn't looks like a Spyderco at all. Take away the two smaller holes and there is no doubt. Add the two smaller holes to Frank Centofante's "Vesuvius" design or Bob Terzuola's "Starmate" design, and they would be siblings, to my eye.
Spyderco has not heard from Benchmade or Neil regarding the design so there is little that I can say. "Ideas" always seem to have different meanings once converted to "legaleze". Perhaps they have information we do not have. I imagine we'll find out.
sal
Spyderco invented and has been consistently using the round opening hole since 1981. It was first covered by our patents (ending in the early 2000's) and by our registered trademark (which began in the late 90's). Our round opening hole trademark was been a symbol of quality, performance and integrity for more than 20 years.
Custom makers selling knives in America have been paying our modest fee ($50/year) for many years for the legal right to use our opening hole. "Whiskers" Allen was the first to begin the "honor roll" many years ago. There are more than 50 custom makers from all over the world that are licensed to use the Spyderco opening hole. One condition of the license is that designs cannot be sold to manufactuers for production that incorporate the round hole.
Spyderco also owns patents on a diamond shaped hole (licensed to John Anthon of Timberline) and an arrowhead shaped hole not being used.
These patents and trademarks were/are only relevant to folding knives and did/do not include fixed blades.
The fact that there are so many folders with "other than round" opening holes on the market is testimonial to the fact that many wish to follow our lead.
Spyderco licensed Benchmade to use the patented (at the time) & trademarked round hole for a while in the 90's. It was used to launch their AFCK. Later the agreement ended and Benchmade went to their oval hole, which is fine and fair.
Spyderco's hound hole is a registered trademark with the US government. We've have always tried to run our business in an honest, fair and proper manner.
To my eye, it looks like a Spyderco, but I'm biased.
Take away the large hole and leave the other two and it looks "less" like a Spyderco.
Take away all of the holes and put a thumb stud there, and it doesn't looks like a Spyderco at all. Take away the two smaller holes and there is no doubt. Add the two smaller holes to Frank Centofante's "Vesuvius" design or Bob Terzuola's "Starmate" design, and they would be siblings, to my eye.
Spyderco has not heard from Benchmade or Neil regarding the design so there is little that I can say. "Ideas" always seem to have different meanings once converted to "legaleze". Perhaps they have information we do not have. I imagine we'll find out.
sal
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2003
- Messages
- 244
for me is only a copy (my Vesuvius looks really -too much- similar).
nothing new, nothing personal.
think of Spyderco designs, those are REAL improvement in ergos, functions, form and class.
of course is a not a chinese cheapo, but it could be for its design remembering other knives.
of course is only my 02 cent, but i'll hate this kind of things, specially from a well known factory.
of course i'll not buy it, nor any other from that factory.
regards
p.s. citations and influences of other designers could happen, or could be an hommage.. but i think that ,if this is the case, it must be stated real clear..Sal said that he didnt licensed the hole this time, this ,plus the form of blade , make me think of it as a copy, and not interesting one.
i mean, if you see a Delica, or a Dodo, Spot, Walker, whatever from S. , YOU KNOW is something new, never seen and something from the same firm . this one.. ?
nothing new, nothing personal.
think of Spyderco designs, those are REAL improvement in ergos, functions, form and class.
of course is a not a chinese cheapo, but it could be for its design remembering other knives.
of course is only my 02 cent, but i'll hate this kind of things, specially from a well known factory.
of course i'll not buy it, nor any other from that factory.
regards
p.s. citations and influences of other designers could happen, or could be an hommage.. but i think that ,if this is the case, it must be stated real clear..Sal said that he didnt licensed the hole this time, this ,plus the form of blade , make me think of it as a copy, and not interesting one.
i mean, if you see a Delica, or a Dodo, Spot, Walker, whatever from S. , YOU KNOW is something new, never seen and something from the same firm . this one.. ?
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 648
Boy, I can see the lawyers rubbing their hands over this one 
. Since the large hole is round and used to open the blade, it clearly infringes on Spyderco's registered trademark. OTOH I'm sure Benchmade will claim that it is 3 holes not one and is Neil's trademark, but if he hasn't registered it so what!
Not that I care. My next 3 holes are going to be a grey Calypso, a SE Salt I and a Centofante III with a Wharncliffe blade (hint Sal
).
. Since the large hole is round and used to open the blade, it clearly infringes on Spyderco's registered trademark. OTOH I'm sure Benchmade will claim that it is 3 holes not one and is Neil's trademark, but if he hasn't registered it so what!Not that I care. My next 3 holes are going to be a grey Calypso, a SE Salt I and a Centofante III with a Wharncliffe blade (hint Sal
).
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