New maker starting out: do I need to heat treat ATS34 stock when making a blade?

B

bruinblade

Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Messages
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I'm looking to make some very simple food carving knives as wedding gifts. I'd like them to be functional and good quality, but I don't need them to be the absolutely hardest blades of all time or have the perfect hamon (or any hamon!).

I don't have a proper kiln or quenching oils. I only have grinders, cutters, sanders, and the tools required to sharpen an edge and make the handles. I'd prefer to start simple, so I was thinking of buying SS334 from Texas Knifemaker's and basically cutting my shape then doing an edge and a handle.

In question format, "will that make an ok kitchen knife for occasional use, assuming proper care?" If not, is there a better steel I should use given I don't want to do any of the heat treating but I do want to grind my own edge? Maybe I'm chasing a unicorn?

Bonus question: what's the difference between regular ATS34 and "white" ATS34?

http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/product_info.php?cPath=87_924_69&products_id=7821

Thanks!
 
I might just do that! The primary reason I didn't want to use an existing blank is that I can't find the right one - I want a 12" cutting edge for the carving knife. The second reason is I really want something better than 440C. Any thoughts on where I could find blanks like that?

At this rate I'm inevitably going to get the rest of the necessary equipment, but I'm reaaaaally trying to put that off until I've got 10 or 20 finished units under my belt.

Thanks again
 
440c is a fine steel that has gotten a bad rap due to mislabelling of inferior steels, and poor heat treating.

A hardened 440C blade with cryo treatment is a hell of a lot better than an annealed ats34 blade.

Read the Count's post for beginners and you will have a better idea of knife making in general. I'm sure he'll be along soon to post the link if you don't find it in the stickies.
 
Awesome! I'm definitely on board with absorbing as much beginner material as possible, so I look forward to seeing /u/Count's info. Thanks
 
The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V38

Answers to a student are different than to machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community;fill out your profile with (Country, State, City), age, education, work and hobbies so we get a sense of who you are.

Basics
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-PDF
http://jubilee101.com/subscription/pdf/Tools/Making-Simple-Knives---12pages.pdf

Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

Things I Advise New Makers Against-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/nw1/scales1.htm
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Wheeler-s-Steel-*-Stuck-in-the-metal-with-you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/956343-Damascus-integral-tag-along

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, organized, available inexpensive.


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save

The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
Great title, but NOT gospel.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind (stock removal)

"Goop Quench" is Bullsh*t
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for 1084

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel
Good heat treat needs accurate temperature control and full quench
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web


Video

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

Many videos are available, some better than others

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
Paul Long's sheath work & videos are recommended, but advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching

Green Pete's Free Video
Make a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat
Use a piece of known 1084 steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools
"Green Pete" posted it free
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too – search knifemaking torrents

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some good, some bad, expect to wait months and there have been no new videos in years.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking


Knife Design:
Think thin, small, simple and fixed
Forget Damascus, swords, 1/4” thick stock, saw-teeth, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife

Look at hundreds of photos
Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx

http://knifemaking.altervista.org/index_disegni_en.html

Start with a drawing and post it before you work on steel, we love photos and can comment before you start
French curves, graph paper and erasers are vital tools
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tWA/TEj5Quiq1ZI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rn2EoHoXpVc/s1600/The+French+Curve.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1147466-How?p=13120810#post13120810

Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such
Use playdough to shape a handle, good handles are not flat

http://versteegblades.com/knife-handle-design/

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums



Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives
Buy new known 1/8” annealed blade steel
Forget lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use known good steel
You will spend more money on sandpaper or soda pop than you will for steel

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, Elmax plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160
His telephone service is better than his website.

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating $10 or $15 for perfect results

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs
http://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/heat-treating/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment to HT themselves
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget Goop Quench and Motor oil

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type
Explanation and classification oil speeds
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well -if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095, but use fast oils Parks 50 & Houghton Houghto Quench K
If you use water or brine, expect broken blades

Hot steel beats plastic, Don't quench in plastic pail

Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min high strength epoxy to attach handles and seal out moisture
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work
prep, measure, mix are key in gluing.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best
Ensure the surface is clean including fingerprints, wear vinyl or nitrile gloves
Use Acetone or Blasting
Don't over-clamp.A “glue starved joint” is weak

West Systems G Flex http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/
Find it locally http://www.westsystem.com/ss/where-to-buy/
Brownell's Acraglas
JB Weld-leaves a grey line


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it by hand with files and abrasive like the Green Pete video.
Use 1084 instead of a file, spheroid annealed steel is butter soft

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

Filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
Tracking problems are usually solved with belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder
Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
There are some things that need to be modified
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62944
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_e1p6D-UyycWHd2V0VMTFVJMDQ/edit

NWG No Weld Grinder $25 plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
Every maker has a preference, new belts come out all the time, search for recent info
Ceramic, trizact and structured belts are expensive and have long life. Aluminium oxide are cheap and wear quickly
Some belts have rigid backing, J-flex have soft backing and can blend curves.
Blaze and Cubitron are popular


VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you think
Maska steel pulleys, plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to 1/2 the price of a sealed NEMA 4 VFD like a KB Electronics KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts, a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with fine instant control.

NEMA 1 VFD’s metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use 1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a foot base for the KMG and NWG, a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with $100 shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

There are cheaper, but the only VFD I found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

It is NEMA 4 sealed
Good community and company support, manuals, diagrams, photos and settings.

Travis W reports running 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't Count.

The minimum I use are silicone half masks with P100 Filter
The soft silicone masks fit better
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes of face get fitted in person

Shave, test the fit every time.

For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Search

This searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

Visit a shop in person
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...stions-for-visiting-an-established-knifemaker
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1166688-How-to-get-a-shop-invite

V38 July 2015 Shop visit Etiquette
Countavatar.jpg
 
Last edited:
If you can properly work the 440-C and then get it heat treated you will have a very good knife. Isn't a 12" blade overdoing it a few inches?
Frank
 
I'm making this first project with a very specific end product in mind - I cook for large groups a lot and so does the future recipient of this knife. I'm looking to make a "special occasions only" carving set that will likely get used on 25lb turkeys and similar prime ribs. With that usage in mind i should mention I've got quite a few nice carving sets and my go-to for these things are a very old 12" (blade) Henckels or a 14" Granton style. My 9" Warther just isn't quite big enough to get a full cut on gigantic pieces of meat!

I really appreciate all the help here. Since I have everything but the oils and the oven I'm going to search around and see if I can find one near me (Santa Monica, CA) through a friend or something such that I could do my own blades from stock. Worst case I've got a nice IR thermometer and a fire pit so I could try to cowboy-style the heat treatment!
 
ATS-35, Cm154, CPM154CM, are all the same steel. It is a bit better than 440C, but all will make a fine kitchen blade. I am not sure what you are referring to when saying "white" steel and talking about a hamon, but I think you are confusing Hitachi white and blue carbon steels with the stainless steels like ATS34. They are two different animals, and require different processes. Stick with CPM-154 or 440-C. ( My choice in the kitchen knives I make is CPM-S35VN, which makes outstanding slicers.)

Measure those "favorite blades" of yours with calipers and a good ruler. I bet none of them are anywhere near 1/4" thick. You want 1/8" stock, at the max, for kitchen knives at the thickest. Most kitchen knives are 1/16" thick. The only knives I make in 1/4" steel are deba and a few cleavers.

You have well intentioned plans, but almost surely lack the knowledge and experience needed to pull them off. You will have to pair up with a commercial Heat Treater to get your blades hardened, and you will have a lot of hand filing and sanding to do. Be advised that trying a 12X2X1/4" bevel as a first attempt is almost sure to yield a pretty amateur looking blade.





You sound like you have experience in the kitchen, but I will toss this out anyway:
Your project sounds like a blade like this:
http://www.chefscatalog.com/product...pkw=wusthof roast beef carving cutlery&pmt=bb

I make knives for professional chefs, and the number of 12-14" blades I have made in a decade is probably less than a dozen.. Of them one was an "ornamental carver" like you want to make. It was 1.25" wide and in .090" thick CPM-S35VN steel. The blade was 14" long. It was wave edged, which you will not be able to do by hand, but a properly made straight edge cuts quite well. Some searching on the internet may find a suitable pre-made carver blade that will be better for you purposes. If you still want to make it yourself, and go with that shape, it will be much easier to shape, as the blade is just a long rectangle with a round end and a simple handle. Forget things like grantons and any fancy embellishments. It only needs to cut. I would suggest that you do the profile and HT the blade, then grind the bevel hardened.

A few searches came up with these hits;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-LARGE-CHE...ING-GERMANY-/281760153955?hash=item419a36c163
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/153929/ZHEN-Premium-Damascus-Kitchen-Knife-Kits-Set-of-6.aspx
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/product_info.php?products_id=602
 
I am not sure what you are referring to when saying "white" steel and talking about a hamon
Click to expand...
Sorry that was confusing on my part. I was saying two separate things: first, 'I don't need a fancy hamon." Second, 'Texas Knifemakers sells two different ATS34's. They are different sizes. The smaller size is also extra labeled, white. What does that white designation refer to?'

This page has both pieces of steel: http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/index.php?cPath=87_924_69

Code: 
Part SS334 = ATS34 Stainless Steel- 1/4" x 2" x 12"
Part SS331 = ATS34 Stainless Steel- 3/16" x 1-1/2" x 12" (WHITE)
I actually found that same eBay action while searching around, but for two reasons I haven't tried to buy those, maybe three: I don't know the steel composition and everything on this forum says, "make super duper sure you know the steel you're working with!", I'm not trying to do a salmon/Graton* slicer shape - I want to go with a German/classic drop point shape, and I'm not really sure about the overall condition of that particular eBay auction.

I hadn't seen that Texas Fillet with CRYO Item ID# BL707C, that's a great find. What kind of steel does TK use? "high carbon stainless" in this case == ??

*I hear you on the actual Gratons / scallops; I definitely won't try that without CNC machinery.
 
I second the 440c props. I make and use plenty of 440c knives and there is nothing at all wrong with it. On your question, yes I would ht whatever you make or just buy a blank and handle it.
 
I didn't read the listing you saw, but I am pretty sure you were seeing a note on the color of paint they put on the end of the bars. That is to let you know which steel is which when you get them. There is no standard color marking, and every supplier uses his own.
 
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