New member, first blade

fitzo said:
When I read "Yamaha 650" I thought, "Chopper?" Turned out that engine is perfect for a chopper. Makes me think a bit of a knuck. And a suicide shift and rat trap, too, nonetheless! How hard is it to kick? Compression release??

VERY neat build!
Click to expand...
Thanks! I sold that one a while back but it kicked over pretty easy. I also kept the electric start on it because people like that option. Not everyone likes kicking a bike over. Lol
 
Back to knives, I did some digging and found out the instant coffee method to bring out the Damascus pattern more and WOW, did it bring the pattern out! Now I feel satisfied.
IMG_6389.jpeg
IMG_6388.jpeg
 
At 9 layers it isn't exactly damascus. It is a laminated steel blade. It could be called a kyu-mai blade. (nine-layer blade).

Here is how to make damascus that will show a pattern:
Start with your 9-layer stack.
Forge weld it and draw it out until it is 1/4" thick.
Cut into four pieces.
Soak in pickle (Ph-down solution) overnight and then grind both sides to clean and flat metal.
Re-stack.
Forge weld and draw out again. You now have 36 layers, and it would be called a low layer damascus. This will look OK, but not really show much more than strata layers.
Repeat the clean-grind- stack-weld again and you have a medium layer damascus of 144 layers. This will look like waves and swirls.
Repeat again if you want a very active high layer damascus of 576 layers. This will look stunning and have all sorts of wiggles and swirls.

Ways to make a damascus billet show more activity:
If you only use a press to make the layers add up, you are making a steel equivalent of plywood. It will have lots of layers that will show up as you grind the bevels and edge, but they all fall more or less in straight lines. Hand forging the knife to shape will add some pattern, but you are still restricted to stratified layers. If making low to medium layered damascus billet, it is best to make a thick billet about one- half to two-thirds of the length of the final blade and draw out and shape by hand from there. This disrupts the laminations more and adds more wave and swirl effect.

If you manipulate the layers in forming the laminated billet, you get more activity in the final blade. Bars that are manipulated will have the layers disrupted and show much more damascus pattern. This works best with medium layer damascus in the 100-to-200-layer range. You lose metal in manipulation, but greatly gain activity. Some of the complex damascus patterns lose well over half the starting steel by the time the billet is done.
The simplest manipulations are ladder and raindrop. Ladder requires grinding in grooves along the bar and then forging it out to make it flat, or the reverse - forging or pressing in grooves and grinding the bar flat.
Raindrop is the same, using divots drilled around half-way through the bar and then forging it out, or the reverse (my preferred procedure) of hammering the bar heavily on both sides with a big ball peen hammer and then grinding it flat and smooth. You can make ladder or raindrop dies for your press and press the pattern in and then grind flat.

Welding TIPs:
After stacking the billet and welding the ends up and welding the re-bar handle on, soak the billet in kerosene until ready to forge weld. This prevents any oxides starting between the layers, and the carbon left behind when it burns off when placed in the forge greatly helps the weld form and increases the contrast in the layers. You can still use borax as a flux if you want to during the weld heats.
This procedure is called hydrocarbon-fluxing. Many people who do damascus don't use any borax at all, just start with a billet soaked in kerosene or other hydrocarbon fluid. Use fluids that don't have unsafe smoke. many brake cleaners and solvents are not good choices. Plain kerosene is one of the easiest to get and works perfect. When ready to forge weld and draw out the billet, just let it drain into the tank a minute and stick in the forge. The black soot from the kerosene burning off is the flux.

Keep a tall tank with kerosene in the bottom in the shop and make a bunch of billets with handles up. Store them in the tank under the kerosene with a cover on the tank until forging day. When done forging for the day you can store them back in the tank until the next session. Some folks just store them in the quench tank oil ... It works.

Don't let the billet cool beyond bright red in drawing out. Once the billet drops below red the scale forms. If you draw a bit and put immediately back in the forge scale is greatly reduced. A quick brushing off with a wire brush before and after each heat will make for great welds.

Don't try and weld too cool. Welding is done at high heat. It is yellow color and around 2100°F (1900-2300°, depending on the steel type). Trying to make a weld when the steel is red or has cooled a bit will break the welds formed and make cold shuts and bad welds. Weld a bit, put back in the forge, weld a bit, put back ... repeat.

Don't try to weld too hard. In making the initial welds, the steel will weld with very little pressure. Moderate hammer blows or gentle pressing is what you want. Once the billet is fully welded you can lower the temperature and work it harder. Too much pressure too soon can mush the billet apart or make split welds.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
At 9 layers it isn't exactly damascus. It is a laminated steel blade. It could be called a kyu-mai blade. (nine-layer blade).

Here is how to make damascus that will show a pattern:
Start with your 9-layer stack.
Forge weld it and draw it out until it is 1/4" thick.
Cut into four pieces.
Soak in pickle (Ph-down solution) overnight and then grind both sides to clean and flat metal.
Re-stack.
Forge weld and draw out again. You now have 36 layers, and it would be called a low layer damascus. This will look OK, but not really show much more than strata layers.
Repeat the clean-grind- stack-weld again and you have a medium layer damascus of 144 layers. This will look like waves and swirls.
Repeat again if you want a very active high layer damascus of 576 layers. This will look stunning and have all sorts of wiggles and swirls.

Ways to make a damascus billet show more activity:
If you only use a press to make the layers add up, you are making a steel equivalent of plywood. It will have lots of layers that will show up as you grind the bevels and edge, but they all fall more or less in straight lines. Hand forging the knife to shape will add some pattern, but you are still restricted to stratified layers. If making low to medium layered damascus billet, it is best to make a thick billet about one- half to two-thirds of the length of the final blade and draw out and shape by hand from there. This disrupts the laminations more and adds more wave and swirl effect.

If you manipulate the layers in forming the laminated billet, you get more activity in the final blade. Bars that are manipulated will have the layers disrupted and show much more damascus pattern. This works best with medium layer damascus in the 100-to-200-layer range. You lose metal in manipulation, but greatly gain activity. Some of the complex damascus patterns lose well over half the starting steel by the time the billet is done.
The simplest manipulations are ladder and raindrop. Ladder requires grinding in grooves along the bar and then forging it out to make it flat, or the reverse - forging or pressing in grooves and grinding the bar flat.
Raindrop is the same, using divots drilled around half-way through the bar and then forging it out, or the reverse (my preferred procedure) of hammering the bar heavily on both sides with a big ball peen hammer and then grinding it flat and smooth. You can make ladder or raindrop dies for your press and press the pattern in and then grind flat.

Welding TIPs:
After stacking the billet and welding the ends up and welding the re-bar handle on, soak the billet in kerosene until ready to forge weld. This prevents any oxides starting between the layers, and the carbon left behind when it burns off when placed in the forge greatly helps the weld form and increases the contrast in the layers. You can still use borax as a flux if you want to during the weld heats.
This procedure is called hydrocarbon-fluxing. Many people who do damascus don't use any borax at all, just start with a billet soaked in kerosene or other hydrocarbon fluid. Use fluids that don't have unsafe smoke. many brake cleaners and solvents are not good choices. Plain kerosene is one of the easiest to get and works perfect. When ready to forge weld and draw out the billet, just let it drain into the tank a minute and stick in the forge. The black soot from the kerosene burning off is the flux.

Keep a tall tank with kerosene in the bottom in the shop and make a bunch of billets with handles up. Store them in the tank under the kerosene with a cover on the tank until forging day. When done forging for the day you can store them back in the tank until the next session. Some folks just store them in the quench tank oil ... It works.

Don't let the billet cool beyond bright red in drawing out. Once the billet drops below red the scale forms. If you draw a bit and put immediately back in the forge scale is greatly reduced. A quick brushing off with a wire brush before and after each heat will make for great welds.

Don't try and weld too cool. Welding is done at high heat. It is yellow color and around 2100°F (1900-2300°, depending on the steel type). Trying to make a weld when the steel is red or has cooled a bit will break the welds formed and make cold shuts and bad welds. Weld a bit, put back in the forge, weld a bit, put back ... repeat.

Don't try to weld too hard. In making the initial welds, the steel will weld with very little pressure. Moderate hammer blows or gentle pressing is what you want. Once the billet is fully welded you can lower the temperature and work it harder. Too much pressure too soon can mush the billet apart or make split welds.
Click to expand...
Thanks for all that info! Yeah, once I realized that I actually forge welded the 9 layers successfully on my first blade ever, I was too chicken to cut and restack the billet (even though that was my plan I felt it was too risky to ruin the billet with possible cold shuts or delams on the next forge welds.) so I just decided to leave it alone.

Thank you again for all that info. When I revisit Damascus I’m DEFINITELY coming back to this thread to lean on and try the techniques you pointed out. Another type of Damascus I’d like to try is Twisted. I know people say you need to play it safe and grind down the high points of the twists to prevent making a bunch of cold shuts in your billet when you hammer it flat again.

I wish I had a real press and a power hammer. My 6.5 ton log splitter conversion press can only handle so much but it definitely moves the steel faster that hand hammering. If I had better equipment I’d probably be inclined to try more difficult style blade patterns but for now I just want to focus on the fundamentals. Thank you again for all your knowledge and sharing it with me. It means a lot when people want to see you succeed.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Keep a tall tank with kerosene in the bottom in the shop and make a bunch of billets with handles up. Store them in the tank under the kerosene with a cover on the tank until forging day. When done forging for the day you can store them back in the tank until the next session. Some folks just store them in the quench tank oil ... It works.
Click to expand...
Hey Stacy, as far as this step goes, are you saying when I’m done forging for the day, I should place the HOT? billet right in the shallow kerosene tank before they have a chance to cool and oxidize?? Or do you let the billet COOL completely next to the forge and then put in back in the kerosene for the night? Something about putting a hot billet in kerosene seems sketchy even though I know kerosene is a much more stable hydrocarbon than say gasoline. Also I’m thinking you mean a cool billet because I know kerosene would essentially quench and harden a hot billet and I’m thinking that’s not good for it.
 
For kerosene - let it cool to room temp.
If storing in your quench oil, you can put it in hotter, but I would let it cool down below any red glow.
 
Ok that’s what I thought. I just wanted to clarify before I start throwing kerosene into the mixture of dangerous stuff you do while forging. Lol
 
Yes, I have to be very particular in posting these things. People in foreign countries read the words different in Google Translate, and inexperienced makers may not understand the topic well enough to know what things are a bad idea.

Plunging a 2# block of 1800° steel into a couple gallons of kerosene ... what could possibly go wrong :eek:😬🔥

I am reminded of the fellow on FIF who put a huge tank of oil on a hot plate to temper a sword. It burned down half his shop. Everyone has read that this is a really bad idea, I and many others have posted not to try it .... but there is always someone who says, "I saw in on YouTube that ....."
 
Yeah there was a couple guys on FIF that had everything from really close calls to losing their shop almost completely. I keep 2 fire blankets, 2 Class K extinguishers, and one ABC extinguisher plus the garden hose is pulled inside my shop. My shop is also built with corrugated steel siding/roofing on the walls with a cement floor. I also have two large exhaust fans mounted in the wall for evacuating fumes, dust, and smoke. Also my quench tank has a hinged cover. Being a former firefighter has made me paranoid to say the least. Lol
 
So I just finished my second blade ever. It’s a Japanese Nakiri with a 44 layer Damascus random pattern blade and hidden tang that includes a brass bolster and a burnt walnut handle. I’m really trying my best to learn. And I’m realizing forging is my strong suit. Fit and finish is not. (Even though it doesn’t look terrible it’s just more difficult for me).
IMG_6435.jpeg
IMG_6434.jpeg
 
Fit and finish is all about not saying "that's good enough" and moving on to the next step. It's test fitting the guard to the tang 50 times to get a perfect fit, filing just a little bit each time. It's getting everything flat so there are no gaps. It takes time.
On FIF they have three hours to make a knife with a hidden tang and guard. I probably spent 3 hours or more making just the guard on my last bowie. Planning, shaping, drilling. filing, test fit, file, test fit, file, ect. ect.
 
I think the layer count you have looks great. I prefer fewer layers, more is not better, in my opinion. I'm in the same boat as you. I've made just a handful of knives so far and while each one looks better, each one has new errors. Practice makes perfect. I look forward to seeing what comes off the new press.
 
Forrest is very much right about working on the fit and finish. Don't skimp on that .
Here are some suggestions for your next project.

BTW - when posting photos of your knives, give the details - blade length/height/thickness, handle length, OAL, etc.

On your Nikiri:
1) The edge shape is way too rounded. It should have only a bit of curve but almost flat, with most of the curvature toward the tip. The heel should be close to the same height as the center.
2) The blade should have been forged down to a wider profile. Drawing down the bevels is a good forging procedure to learn that also increases the damascus activity. What you now have will be impossible to use without your fingers hitting the cutting board.
3) The edge bevel should go higher up the blade (shinogi tsukuri), or be a Full Flat Grind (hira tsukuri). (I do an FFG)
4) Your brass bolster is a good attempt but could use more sanding. It also looks like there is still glue on the blade there. A folded paper towel and acetone will remove that.
5) The "burnt" walnut does not do anything for it. It looks ... well .... burnt. Sanding and applying a finish would be a better choice.
6) The overall shape is close but could use some adjustment next time. The spine should form a straight line with the top of the handle and the handle should rise at a slight angle from the cutting board when the blade is sitting flat on the cutting board. This is done by making the tip height a bit less than the heel height.

TIPS:
A) Hand sanding the final details and finish on the bolster and handle (as well as blades) is how to get a smooth and good-looking finish. It takes longer, but looks much more professional.
B) In forging, make the blade shape rectangular, triangular, or trapezoid and align the tang with the spine as needed first. Add any curvatures after grinding in the preliminary bevel. This will help establish the heel and tip positions and give straighter lines. Pay attention to the tang height above the edge on kitchen knives, as you need finger clearance. This is why kitchen knives generally have a taller blade.

Send me an email and I'll send you some handle materials. sapelt@cox.net
1722255425565.png
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top