New Orleans Police Problem and Martial Arts

DannyinJapan

DannyinJapan

Joined
Oct 9, 2003
Messages
5,594
I know everybody is familiar with the situation by now. The thing is, everybody feels bad for both parties at this point.
Frankly, Im surprised it hasnt happened more often.
What surprised me about the video was the sound of rock and roll and booze and partying going on. Seems like nothing happened.....

Anyway, about the title of my thread. Martial arts is simply the knowledge that enables a small man to defeat a large man.
It doesn't seem like these cops possessed that knowledge does it?
(This is not derrogatory, this is critical, just in case anyone is in doubt)

Do you see how martial arts can protect both the police officer and the suspect?
Joint locks, body movement, "tactical pinching", manipulation of the spine and balance, etc...

The Rodney King thing would have never gotten a moment of press if ONE cop had posessed the martial skill to disarm and subdue another man.
I don't know what kind of training they get, but I don know that the police academy only lasts about three months.
It takes YEARS to attain skill in Budo.
We need to encourage our police officers to continue their training throughout their careers, for their safety and ours.
 
DannyinJapan said:
Do you see how martial arts can protect both the police officer and the suspect?
Joint locks, body movement, "tactical pinching", manipulation of the spine and balance, etc...
Click to expand...

I was going to work one morning, and saw what turned out to be 2 NYPD detectives approach a high school kid who was, let's say, out of control. He got boisterous, one detective reached out a hand -- and the kid was falling! The other detective caught him and lowered him to the ground gently. Both of them were talking to him calmly, reassuring him everything would be OK, as they handcuffed him, and raised him up carefully, and took him away.

It can be done. I had a friend in basic training who had been a California Highway patrolman. He showed us several very simple, non-damaging ways to control even a violent person. A lot of it was similar to kubotan techniques. Wrestling holds are also very good for this.
 
The problem is, police are often dealing with individuals not in their right minds, whether they're mentally disturbed, intoxicated, or simply extremely angry. Such individuals often do not react the way that they're expected to when force is applied.

I'd expect that martial arts can be a useful step on the force continuum but the question remains: every department has a given budget and time frame for training. How is this best utilized for the taxpayers to get the most bang for their buck?
 
DannyinJapan said:
The Rodney King thing would have never gotten a moment of press if ONE cop had posessed the martial skill to disarm and subdue another man.
I don't know what kind of training they get, but I don know that the police academy only lasts about three months.
Click to expand...

From what I can tell, the cops in the Rodney King thing did exactly what they were trained to do within their departmental policy (a policy whose merits could obviously be debated, of course).

Many (most) modern police departments forbid the use of impact weapons anywhere other than arms and legs, and certainly not on the head. Which means a situation that could be ended quickly and easily turns into a pounding festival on a recalcitrant individuals arms and legs.

What they are "allowed" to do and what actually works well are sometimes mutually exclusive.
 
True, but there's a very good reason for this policy: if you're striking someone on the limbs with a blunt object you're using pain to force compliance. If you strike them on the head you're trying to kill them. At least, that's how the courts tend to view it.
 
I wholly agree with Danny on this one, alot of police DO NOT know simple

take downs or small joint locks . even fewer know how to really use the T handle baton (P 48 i think ) much less the ASP .We have had 3 OK county sheriff and 7 OK county guards

come through our House / dojo just to learn something effective in close quarters

I have also have the privilege of sparing many of OKC's finest in Kali stick and knife

tactics , where they seemed to gain NO experience

now I am by no means anti Cop ,I have several on the force as close friends ( and they can pick me apart BTW) its just that most seem to stick to being Bigger and stronger then the "bad guys"

which as any MA knows is a bad idea
 
Real martial arts concern people who are trying to kill you. The real thing, that is.
Drunk or agitated shouldn't be a problem.
Is money and time the problem?
Hmmm, I didnt think of that, but maybe we can teach police officers for free.
Why not?
 
Have a friend in Baton Rouge who has been teaching LEO's there for free for 10+years. He has the credentials,he has the 20 year K.O. record in the Tough Man Championships.More martialists should follow his example,if they have the time. :thumbup: :)
 
the "tough man championships" ??
That is exactly the kind of thing we need to get rid of. That caveman mentality is the kind of thinking that caused the problem in the first place.
I dont mean to offend you, but that has nothing at all whatsoever to do with real martial arts or police dealing with a violent person by using superior movement and body skills.

Back to the subject: I would estimate that it would take 6 months minimum of training twice a week to get somebody to a point where they could deal with violence in a non-violent way.

You have to get over that urge to respond to violence with violence.

(I think leatherbird is talking about a person who has been banned from this forum)
 
I can't think of any aspect of life where MA would be a bad idea. I mean, what does it hurt to know how to read the situation, how to react, how to move your body. My wife to be is a school psychologist and they even trained her on some basic martial arts holds. Let's face it, some of these kids are a little messed up and sometimes violent. It's amazing how strong an angry 8 year old kid can be. It's also amazing how quickly they calm down when they are put in a situation where they are completely under someone else's physical control.
Now myself, I'm not a martial artist in any way shape or form. I wrestled for years in jr. high and high school. Also, one of our "guest coaches" was a black belt in several martial arts. What I learned from him was body awareness. If you are aware of where your core is, then you have a greater chance of avoiding a full on attack, or in the case of wrestling, having someone shoot in at your legs. This guy trained a lot of good Grecco-Roman style wrestlers because of this. He's a really nice guy. The kind that walks the walk.
I also agree that many police officers just try to be stronger than the bad guys. That's good in a lot of ways. Like if i'm in a car wreck and i need my half-dead butt pulled from the flames send in Brutus...not Mary the 60 year old metermaid, please. The thing about criminals is that most of the time they are cornered, and that makes them even more dangerous. The cops know this. This is no new information, but as the situation increases the cops must also kick up their intensity. However, instead of being focused and controlling the situation some try to manhandle it. Hey, if i didn't know any better, then you better believe i'd manhandle someone before i was shot or stabbed.
Don't get me wrong. I'm pro cop. I love cops. They do a pretty thankless job for not enough money. They deal with the worse elements of society and are expected to handle every situation perfectly. They make mistakes like the rest of us. I also know that most N.O. cops are overly tired from the last month of lawlessness. However, i think the situation in NO could have been handled better.

Jake
 
We have a few police officers who train in my Bando class, for submission holds, takedowns, and so on. I would rather that officers be trained and tested regularly in grappling, than have them hit the weight bench and juice up.
Especially if they come to my class. Then they get to be safer on the street, and I get to fight cops ;)
My father was a police officer.
 
DannyinJapan said:
the "tough man championships" ??
That is exactly the kind of thing we need to get rid of. That caveman mentality is the kind of thinking that caused the problem in the first place.
I dont mean to offend you, but that has nothing at all whatsoever to do with real martial arts or police dealing with a violent person by using superior movement and body skills.

Back to the subject: I would estimate that it would take 6 months minimum of training twice a week to get somebody to a point where they could deal with violence in a non-violent way.

You have to get over that urge to respond to violence with violence.

(I think leatherbird is talking about a person who has been banned from this forum)
Click to expand...
Danny, you didn't offend me.I would beg to differ with you on this though.Martial Arts training would certainly benefit anyone doing the job that LEO's do,in fact,it would reduce the chances of a person being hurt by subdueing them quickly and efficiently.O.K.?Before I go just wanted to let ya' know just because someone fights in the Tough Man fights that does not mean that they cannot be highly skilled in martial arts,quite the opposite.
 
DannyinJapan said:
Real martial arts concern people who are trying to kill you. The real thing, that is.
Drunk or agitated shouldn't be a problem.
Click to expand...

What is the real thing?

It's a problem for tazers, pepper spray, and even firearms. I would expect it to be a problem for martial arts as well.

We have documented cases of individuals receiving multiple injuries, each of which supposedly fatal, and continuing to fight. (Platt and Matix, anyone? And they weren't even high.) If severed arteries and heart shots weren't immediately effective, I wouldn't place my money on a joint lock stopping the action either.

Again, such training would be another option and more options are always good, but this isn't the holy grail.
 
I agree with Danny. Cops could definitely benefit from knowing some MA. Especially takedowns, joint locks and the basics of balance and body awareness.

God I miss Aikido :( --I hadn't thought about it much until this thread.
 
I have to agree with Dave... Funding and time are always the constraints in the training and retraining of LEOs. It is because of these constaints, that options such as pepper spray, tasers, batons, and firearms are available.. In the "best of all possible worlds," the methods described by Esav Benyamin, would be the norm...

I'd also have to agree with Dave's analysis of the Rodney King fiasco. Attacking the limbs makes sense- it disables the perp. Attacking the head can stop the altercation, but may incur serious injuries, even death... Any force on force confrontation can result in unintended consequences... To all sides...

Carter
 
Leatherbird, You are not differing with me, you are repeating my premise verbatim. How we differ is in that man you referred to.

Dave, by "the real thing" I mean real martial arts come from the ancient battlefields where men were actually trying to kill you with spears and swords and maces and whatnot. Serious situations. You are right, some people DO have strong fighting spirits. Hatsumi Sensei talks about that all the time.
We have to move in such a way that they cant hurt us no matter how crazy they may be.
No, the police cant use their swords to nail you to the ground so you cant keep fighting. (A real technique from the old days)
However, they can employ methods that immobilize regardless of the strength or agitation of the suspect.
Come to think of it, they all involve some physical risk to both parties. No, I dont really know of a way we can deal with all ultra-violent, unstoppable monsters without injuring them somewhat.


In that video, it doesnt look like anybody is using any thought out sort of movement at all. Just people wrestling and punching.

Maybe if we had nets suspended from helicopters....

It's hard to imagine that tazers, mace, clubs and bullets wouldnt stop 99.99% of the bad guys out there.
However, I was not talking about the rare uber-criminal. I am talking about the day to day trouble-makers.
My original suggestion was that there should be a wider band of options for police in dealing with physical suspects, but it does not exist because of a lack of martial arts training.
For instance, if the guy refuses to be cuffed, a cop could tie him up with rope in whatever position he happens to be in...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top