New Orleans Police Problem and Martial Arts

Real "martial arts" is SOLDIER training, not a character building, boy-scout style hobby.
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I don't know if I agree, Danny. There's a lot of stuff in soldiering that really has nothing to do with your worth as a human OR meeting and defeating an enemy- just stupid little things that are militarily necessary, like drill and ceremony (which some argue the need for left with the demise of Napoleonic warfare).

I really don't find a need for marching for hours, carrying 2/3 of my body weight as a training aid in my martial training, though I've done it more 'n a few times in the Army.

I propose that building your character- making yourself a more capable, well-rounded human in every way- is indeed a major part of ritualized martial arts training. I happen to think it will increase your effectiveness as a soldier, or just about anything else.

Danny, I've known a few people I thought were really good soldiers. They fit in great with a TEAM, and they knew their jobs completely. I could have beaten almost every one, in single unarmed or manual weapon combat, but they were better soldiers than I.

I ain't so tough. I'd say about 30% of the soldiers in my infantry company were tougher than me, when you talk about the amount of hard #$%@ one could digest and keep going. At the same time, I had little doubts about the outcome if I were pitted against them in most life and death struggles.

I would win. Why? Because of my years of training that the Army could not afford- and in actuality, had no need- to give them. But, many of them were better soldiers.

Is that a little clearer?

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say real martial arts are concerned with life and death, because introducing the idea of soldiery into it is really a false concept.

John
 
I know that not everything a soldier does is hand to hand combat, but everything he does IS meant to help the Army win. A thousand years ago, pretty much all fighting was hand to hand. So thats what soldiers trained at.

Strategy (the Art of War- that is a martial arts book, written for soldier/politicians in ancient china)
Medicine ( a wounded warrior had to fix himself)

The list goes on and on.
I am not saying that character building isnt a good thing, nor that martial arts can't help you get that, but martial arts themselves are simply killing and surviving in battle.

Everybody wants something, everybody has assumptions and desires and expectations. It's only natural.

Real budo defies all of that.
 
I guess what I'm saying, Danny, is that real martial arts are concerned with the evolution of the individual, whereas soldiery is concerned with the success of a team or cause.
 
DannyinJapan said:
Narc, would you have been in trouble if you used the pistol to strike or apply a joint lock?
Im curious if it is only OK for you to shoot someone witha firearm.
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It's been 24 hours since I had a chance to come back to this thread. Danny, a great deal of the time, the gun was along for the ride but never came out. When the defendant looks in your eyes and sees total conviction, as opposed to hesitancy or worry, he knows he's going down. Only occasionally,(about every two weeks or so) does one decide he can blow thru you anyway....that's when training, practice, and knowing yourself comes into play. You also know which of your coworkers will still be right there behind you when the merde hits the blender.....I have , on occasion, applied a few pressure points, to include a pistol up along side his head (very rarely) in order to simply stop the resistance. Many, many times, I would have been entirely in the right to have shot the guy, but knew I could accomplish the same thing without serious injury on either side. One does not contemplate, one simply does it. One has then only to wait to be second guessed by such as Brother Teach, who wait to tell me what a Neanderthal I am. Now older, and some what enfeebled, I would probably shoot sooner.
 
Spectre said:
I guess what I'm saying, Danny, is that real martial arts are concerned with the evolution of the individual, whereas soldiery is concerned with the success of a team or cause.
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That's just it, Specter. It's not. Not really, not in a personal growth kind of way. Modern type martial arts were built for that purpose, loosley based upon the old martial arts but intended to improve and expand the individual.

The old, old Budo (what I mean when I say real martial arts) WAS indeed concerned with the success of the the team, army or nation. Some of the old Bujinkan scrolls contained detailed information on how to build a castle properly, what kind of excrement to smear on arrowheads, etc...
That ain't personal growth. That's war.

Narc,
I understand what you are saying. It sounds like experience has been a good teacher for you. I think your post is a shining example of why experienced military and police officers are often given rank on their first day in our dojos...

there is an old saying in Budo:
"A strong will can make an arrow pierce even stone"

(In fact, the words for will and stone are homonyms in Japanese. "ishi")
 
The old, old Budo (what I mean when I say real martial arts) WAS indeed concerned with the success of the the team, army or nation.
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Danny, I guess we're just going to have to disagree on this. Historically, one of the major problems with the Japanese militarily, was that they failed to work together well as a team, because of a tradition of individual combat. The arts we perform do not typically work well as part of a large force, and if you think about it, could never work well in that role, due to their adaptability. (I know that sounds backward, but think about it.)

This started to change with great innovators such as Nobunaga, who incidentally (as you probably know) wiped out most of the ninja, as well as other
potential threats such as warrior monks...
 
Spec,
You're just going to have to take my word for it. (And remember who tells me these things every week ;) I have to take his word over yours, no offense) Budo isnt just ninjutsu, which, you are correct, is concerned with individual and small unit tactics.
Several of our schools are samurai schools, and one or two were being used in the fields of China during the time of Sun Tzu. (Battlefield strategy)
You are right about the Japanese not doing so well as a nation against the large-force enemies like the Mongols. In terms of army versus army, like the warring states period, hell that was their favorite sport until they discovered baseball.

The point of all this is that Real Budo (martial arts) is not a sport where two people try to beat each other into submission empty-handed and with rules and regulations and aspirations of personal growth. Real Budo is surviving by any means possible using any weapon that is available. It is ruthless and brutal and definitely not for children.

Ill quote Dune for bruiseleee:

"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."
 
On a more serious note.....



Danny, I'm curious about something......How did you fall in love with Dave Hahn's wife? And is Dave Hahn OK with that? The reason I ask is that I know a few wives I'd like to fall in love with and was wondering what your experience with this sort of thing was like.


Thanks in advance and sorry for hijacking your thread.


Semp :D
 
Danny,

What makes our art so great? You may believe differently, but I believe the utility is in the ability to fit into the intention of our adversary (I'm sorry that's worded so cumbersomely). We have a range of options when faced with adversity. We can evade, we can stand our ground, we can advance, we can retreat, or some instant mix of all of these tactics. We have amazing adaptibility to use, based on our knowledge, strength and current energy level, attitude, terrain, assessment of enemy, etc. If we faced 100 opponents, we might never face two identically.

Military action is very different. In military actions, with groups- especially large groups- there are *fewer* available choices. The idea is to have one of a mere handful of responses, that will be enacted based on a common trigger.

Incoming! and everyone does the exact same damn thing. Are you with me, yet?

I know the schools that make up the curriculum you study. I know how old they are. I know they predate (Japanese) truly integrated effective large-group tactics. Winning as an army is not about excellence or innovation. It's about mechanically moving as a unit. Moving like a robot. Moving like you're programmed. There is little place for elan, only synchronization. The skill now lies not in individual excellence, but in mirroring what everyone else is doing.

The *heart* may be the same- as a large unit, sacrificing your individuality and perhaps body- for a great goal- but the actions are different. Very different.

There is no place to allow your body to dodge the blade, only to stay in formation, and let your squad mates remove the threat. That's it.

I think I'm done here. Believe me, or don't. It probably doesn't matter, in the long run.

Of course, in the long run, probably nothing matters, including our perception.

John
 
I'm with Semper- that is, wanting more information about your falling in love with Dave Hahn's wife.

. I think you just admire and love them, but leave the day to day living skills to Dave Hahn and his wife. IF this isn't correct, please let Semper and I know.



munk
 
Danny, if you walk down my drive (dirt road) I won't shoot at you. I wouldn't miss if I did, and you wouldn't be able to help me chop wood.

But if you do come down my road, you won't be wearing a Japanese robe or anything, right?



munk
 
Well, you remember whan I stole all of Dave's khukuris? I dressed up as his wife in a floppy hat?
I had to borrow those clothes from her and that's when we met. We just hit it off!
 
I want to be careful about kidding around. So I'm going to tell a real story. I have another friend from Texas named Danny. He's the one who gave me the German Eye pocket knife. He also stepped up when my wife and I were grieving when our healthy first trimester child was accidentally poisened by the hospital. HE insisted upon taking us out to eat. Not a celebration- we needed to be around good friends. I was leaving next day, Ramcharger loaded to the gills, for Idaho Falls. I had a week to find a place to live in preparation for my wife. I'll never forget his kindness to us on that day, and the way he gently brought God to the table as a healer.

Anyway, he had his own rough road. His wife's father had a failing trucking company. Turned out a relative embezzled all the money for drugs. Danny took it over and turned it around. And they met with hardship after hardship- never giving up. Volvo sold them a fleet of useless trucks that nearly bankrupted them. Danny honorably paid the bank the notes for all. Calif got on it's high horse, and decided all small business with employee's over a certain number had to provide the same expensive health care the State legistlators enjoyed. Danny reincorporated in Nevada, and many truckers lost their jobs. Through it all his lovely Irish red haired wife worked along his side. Her looks over the years taking the hits of the stress and long hours, but her enormous heart and soul evident to anyone with eyes. I've always loved and admired her. He is a lucky man. (and I am too- my wife stayed the course)

It is clear examples of courage and love that guide us through. It is good to love thy neighbors wife, in the right way, and they in turn love you and yours for your own example and the joy each family shares. It is good to love people.



munk
 
Danny, we all got that so long ago it's not worth mentioning, but now you did, OK.



munk
 
munk said:
.
It is clear examples of courage and love that guide us through. It is good to love thy neighbors wife, in the right way, and they in turn love you and yours for your own example and the joy each family shares. It is good to love people.
munk
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200 % Right, Brother. Those are exactly the folks your wife will need, should you fail to come back from the field....
 
The bottom line is we find each other like those bouys (?) in the ocean guiding us to safe passage. Good humans are like pearls on a string- each connected to the other along a line of being found. What the heck would we do without help from our friends?



munk
 
Semper Fi said:
On a more serious note.....

Danny, I'm curious about something......How did you fall in love with Dave Hahn's wife? And is Dave Hahn OK with that? The reason I ask is that I know a few wives I'd like to fall in love with and was wondering what your experience with this sort of thing was like.

Semp :D
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what in the name of huh? Where'd this come from?

well, i didn't want to get involved in this thread but now that the wifey is involved... YEESH!

the concept of "martial arts" today doesn't refer to what it really used to truly mean from days gone by. now it has become more of a sport, like boxing. that statement wasn't meant to detract anything from Budo. but let's be perfectly honest here, the average joe six pack with a mortgage and 2 kids generally, overall, does not believe they will get into situations like life and death street fights or confrontations with criminals. you can take that as good or bad, your mileage may vary.

for example, i myself do not identify with martial arts. i'm a fighter, not a soldier, martial artist, or warrior, and i'm pretty content with that. my only concern is what techniques, irrespective of art, tradition or moral teaching, is most useful in beating the individual in front of me and tacking on another win tally within a relatively defined set of rules (for example, i really don't want to be in a situation where my berries will be in imminent danger. broken arm, broken leg... NO PROBLEM!).

what i find distasteful is when the two worlds collide or there are misunderstandings. there are so many arguments in between and with danny after my wife and work stomping on my face i really don't have the time or the patience to deal with the ego's of some (NOT ALL) fighters and MA's.

i know if i broke into danny's house or met him on the street he'd probably have his way with me.

but if we were both competing in the octagon...? HMMM!!!

;) ;) ;)
 
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